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Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
As at 23rd November 2024 10:21 GMT
 
Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 16:02, 1st November 2024
 
East West Rail announced a stragegy and consultation for 'discontinuous electrification' yesterday:

https://eastwestrail.co.uk/plans-for-powering-trains-and-details-of-our-upcoming-consultation

Class 196s initially operating the route, could well be replaced by hybrid battery-electric trains - Stadler FLIRT's perhaps?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Surrey 455 at 20:47, 22nd October 2024
 
Here's Network Rail's take on today's events, together with a cab's eye view of some of the route.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/first-train-completes-test-run-between-oxford-and-milton-keynes-for-east-west-rail

I wonder how the drivers & trainers are trained on anew route that no one's worked?

The destination of that Chiltern train is "Merry Christmas" 

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by JayMac at 18:35, 22nd October 2024
 
More accurately, Class 805 Evero.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 18:01, 22nd October 2024
 
Here's an unusual sight - an IET at Milton Keynes Central yesterday, by kind permission of a fellow Dull Man, James Harman.



Avanti Westcoast do operate Class 800's just not green coloured ones 

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 09:10, 22nd October 2024
 
Here's an unusual sight - an IET at Milton Keynes Central yesterday, by kind permission of a fellow Dull Man, James Harman.


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 05:59, 22nd October 2024
 
I wonder how the drivers & trainers are trained on anew route that no one's worked?

I wondered too ...

Computer simulation these days.  And taking it slow!

When I was involved in the Thameslink Canal Tunnels 10 years computer simulation was used then aided by still photos of key items also we had a "drivers eye view" video taken by an RRV run; we also took the driver trainers on a walk through

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 21:45, 21st October 2024
 
I wonder how the drivers & trainers are trained on anew route that no one's worked?

I wondered too ...

Computer simulation these days.  And taking it slow!

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 20:41, 21st October 2024
 
I wonder how the drivers & trainers are trained on anew route that no one's worked?

I wondered too ...

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 20:39, 21st October 2024
 
Here's Network Rail's take on today's events, together with a cab's eye view of some of the route.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/first-train-completes-test-run-between-oxford-and-milton-keynes-for-east-west-rail

I wonder how the drivers & trainers are trained on anew route that no one's worked?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Mark A at 20:36, 21st October 2024
 
**Various snips**
GWML diversion using that route whilst it would work I guess will not happen while the Ealing Broadway / Popular / NLL route is feasible, however Cotswolds services maybe.

<placard>Yarnton chord now!</placard>

<fx: ploughs across a couple of major roads.>
:-)

Mark

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 20:10, 21st October 2024
 
Supposedly May25 timetable change

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 19:50, 21st October 2024
 
It appears that GWR is operating IETs along the East/West rail for potential use as a diversionary route.

However, it is unclear to me under what circumstances this route would be utilized, especially considering there is an existing route into London from Oxford via Bicester that is not currently employed as a diversionary route.

Interesting thought for Christmases future - trains non-stop from Swindon to Euston reversing at Milton Keynes!  Perhaps the problem via Beaconsfield is that it ends up in a London terminus even more constrained than Euston?

I note that this morning there was a direct train through Old Oak Common and Claydon - both on the HS2 route.  It took 2 hours 

Edit to correct typos

II is more likely to be correct about the 800 being used for EW route commissioning given he is industry insider 

GWML diversion using that route whilst it would work I guess will not happen while the Ealing Broadway / Popular / NLL route is feasible, however Cotswolds services maybe.

I don't think EW route is not going to be available for passenger train use until the summer posibly spring of 2025 ready for possibly a September 2025 train service

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Mark A at 18:19, 21st October 2024
 
Yes, that's the one - 5Q47

But who would want to travel that route? Nottingham is quicker via Birmingham.

For the endpoints, ease of travel. Looking at the links provided between intermediate stations, it's often efficient in terms of time, and there's proven unmet demand.

To run this fantasy service, I've just needed to build a new link between Northampton and Market Harborough to replace the one that closed c 1982. The original line was hampered by level crossings but actually saw its few overbridges rebuilt with clearance for electrification. Such an odd history in its last years, between the sixties and the eighties, Northampton to Market Harborough closed and reopened more times than I can shake a stick at.

Mark

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by eightonedee at 17:01, 21st October 2024
 
Anyway, for the future: Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - MK▸ - Northampton - Leicester - Nottingham pls. And under the wires too

My vote is for Bournemouth-Southampton-Basingstoke-Reading-Oxford-MK-Bedford-Cambridge-Norwich! - But perhaps we can settle for alternating hourly services.....

(A person can dream.....!)

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ray951 at 16:06, 21st October 2024
 
Thanks for that. Realtimetrains has more too. e.g. Bletchley has seen a train from London Paddington.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WNO/2024-10-21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It appears that GWR is operating IETs along the East/West rail for potential use as a diversionary route.

However, it is unclear to me under what circumstances this route would be utilized, especially considering there is an existing route into London from Oxford via Bicester that is not currently employed as a diversionary route.

Thanks for this. I didn't spot that that train was identified as an IEP when it left Paddington.

Is the following the set, having done several runs to Bicester and back, returning from Milton Keynes to Oxford and then back to North Pole perhaps (or maybe it was never a class 80x in the first place...)?

Anyway, for the future: Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - MK - Northampton - Leicester - Nottingham pls. And under the wires too.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K21478/2024-10-21/detailed

There is a picture of the IEP at Bicester Village in this very forum http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=29339.0

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 14:34, 21st October 2024
 
Yes, that's the one - 5Q47

But who would want to travel that route? Nottingham is quicker via Birmingham.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Mark A at 14:16, 21st October 2024
 
Thanks for that. Realtimetrains has more too. e.g. Bletchley has seen a train from London Paddington.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WNO/2024-10-21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It appears that GWR is operating IETs along the East/West rail for potential use as a diversionary route.

However, it is unclear to me under what circumstances this route would be utilized, especially considering there is an existing route into London from Oxford via Bicester that is not currently employed as a diversionary route.

Thanks for this. I didn't spot that that train was identified as an IEP when it left Paddington.

Is the following the set, having done several runs to Bicester and back, returning from Milton Keynes to Oxford and then back to North Pole perhaps (or maybe it was never a class 80x in the first place...)?

Anyway, for the future: Bristol - Swindon - Oxford - MK - Northampton - Leicester - Nottingham pls. And under the wires too.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K21478/2024-10-21/detailed

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 13:18, 21st October 2024
 
Or, even better, a true East West line from Norwich/Ipswich/Cambridge/Milton Keynes via Oxford to Swindon/Batb/Bristol/Cardiff.

But, yes, the use of an IET today is not in any way connected with GWR aspirations or diversionary knowledge.  Though it will of course prove the route for them.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 13:01, 21st October 2024
 
It appears that GWR is operating IETs along the East/West rail for potential use as a diversionary route.

However, it is unclear to me under what circumstances this route would be utilized, especially considering there is an existing route into London from Oxford via Bicester that is not currently employed as a diversionary route.

Interesting thought for Christmases future - trains non-stop from Swindon to Euston reversing at Milton Keynes!  Perhaps the problem via Beaconsfield is that it ends up in a London terminus even more constrained than Euston?

I note that this morning there was a direct train through Old Oak Common and Claydon - both on the HS2 route.  It took 2 hours 

Edit to correct typos

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 12:53, 21st October 2024
 
Indeed - which is why I think the ROSCO has simply won the contract to test & that chiltern don't have the spare stock to run all these services. It appears it is just today & tomorrow on RTT

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ray951 at 12:36, 21st October 2024
 
Thanks for that. Realtimetrains has more too. e.g. Bletchley has seen a train from London Paddington.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WNO/2024-10-21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It appears that GWR is operating IETs along the East/West rail for potential use as a diversionary route.

However, it is unclear to me under what circumstances this route would be utilized, especially considering there is an existing route into London from Oxford via Bicester that is not currently employed as a diversionary route.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Mark A at 12:13, 21st October 2024
 
Thanks for that. Realtimetrains has more too. e.g. Bletchley has seen a train from London Paddington.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:WNO/2024-10-21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:56, 21st October 2024
 
Test/training with real trains started today between Bicester and Bletchley.

You can see the train movements here:  https://signalmaps.co.uk/#claydon:1806


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Noggin at 13:17, 8th March 2024
 
Apparently the section to Bedford mentioned in yesterday's budget https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-68491452

I am not convinced that £240m is enough to actually do all the required work, and would like to see more detail about the funding, but it does say that trains will be running from Oxford to Bedford by 2030

I think the £240m is money towards works rather than the full scope.

If I understand correctly, it's been descoped considerably since the 2021 consultation and it's now more of an upgrade of the Marston Vale line than the complete rebuild that was foreseen. Piecemeal track replacement and a single length of redoubling, a sub-100mph line speed (which means the level crossings can stay) giving 3tph and rebuilt Bedford St John's station.

My guess is that they will crack on with the Marston Vale line, but leave the redevelopment of Bedford Station for now. Given that Cambridge South is costing £180m, it must be in the same ballpark, with the various CPOs around the station and to the north inevitably controversial, whereas the existing line is more along the lines of "permitted development"

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ray951 at 11:49, 7th March 2024
 
Apparently the section to Bedford mentioned in yesterday's budget https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-68491452

I am not convinced that £240m is enough to actually do all the required work, and would like to see more detail about the funding, but it does say that trains will be running from Oxford to Bedford by 2030

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 21:13, 6th March 2024
 
It does clearly say "Media"

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 17:20, 6th March 2024
 
Ceremonial linking of the tracks - from Network Rail

An event to mark the coming together of the tracks on Connection Stage One (CS1) of the East West Rail project. The final section of track connecting Bicester and Bletchley will be laid Thursday (7 March) as part of the East West Rail (EWR) project to improve rail connectivity between Cambridge and Oxford.

I suspect this is not supposed to be out as a general public invite (even though it is out there) so I have mirrored the invite in the members archive - if you are logged in and interested you can find it at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/ewinvite_20240307.pdf

I think it's primarily for the press. Whether Joe Public will be able to watch the smiles and handshakes, and listen to the minister saying "Vote for us, and we'll fix everything that is wrong on the railway and slash fares" is another matter.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 01:38, 6th March 2024
 
Ceremonial linking of the tracks - from Network Rail

An event to mark the coming together of the tracks on Connection Stage One (CS1) of the East West Rail project. The final section of track connecting Bicester and Bletchley will be laid Thursday (7 March) as part of the East West Rail (EWR) project to improve rail connectivity between Cambridge and Oxford.

I suspect this is not supposed to be out as a general public invite (even though it is out there) so I have mirrored the invite in the members archive - if you are logged in and interested you can find it at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/ewinvite_20240307.pdf

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 14:43, 19th December 2023
 
Report with photos on X/Twitter that the new track construction machine has closed the gap in the up line, contractor VolkerRail states the track work is 99% complete:

https://twitter.com/volkerrailuk/status/1736710963464741190?s=46&t=OUz0_Kol-CBqWN8VOOP0Og


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Noggin at 09:33, 14th December 2023
 
The NAO have just published a report of their investigation into EWR.
Government needs to ensure its growth plans for Cambridge {snip}

The full report is linked from here
- a choice of three versions (I've not yet looked at any of them).

How on earth do they get £1bn as an estimate for EWR electrification? It's only 90 odd miles and surely most of the new structures and signalling are all electrification compatible? Perhaps they've fished around, thrown in electrification of Oxford, new stock, EMU depot and a couple of grid connections.   

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 15:50, 13th December 2023
 
May be the camera angles, but there seem to be some heroic gradients now!
There’s a heck of lot of foreshortening () going on,  the distance from foreground to background in the first photo is about 4 km.

It’s true the bridge over HS2 is a definite high point, but as you suggest the camera seriously exaggerates it.  The long shot from the side, looking over the fields, shows it’s not really a huge gradient.

Paul

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by stuving at 15:45, 13th December 2023
 
The NAO have just published a report of their investigation into EWR.
Government needs to ensure its growth plans for Cambridge are aligned with its £6-7bn investment in a new regional railway (East West Rail, Oxford to Cambridge), so it can maximise the economic benefits of the line, a new report by the National Audit Office says (NAO).

The independent public spending watchdog’s report examines the evolving context for the East West Rail (EWR), Department for Transport’s (DfT) assessment of its benefits and costs, and the arrangements in place to deliver it. The report does not provide a judgement on EWR’s value for money or examine delivery progress.

At the 2017 Autumn Budget, government announced plans to support economic growth in the region between Oxford and Cambridge. The plans included a new road project, ambitions to build up to one million homes, and investment for EWR, which the Department for Transport expects will cost around £6-7 billion.

The improved connectivity is intended to make the region more attractive to businesses and new housing development, supporting growth and jobs. The EWR project is being delivered by the East West Railway Company (EWR Co2), an arms-length body established by the DfT. However, in March 2021, DfT cancelled the road project due to value for money concerns, and in July 2021 government confirmed its approach was to support locally led planning for housing development.

Separately, in July 2023, the Department for Levelling Up Housing & Communities (DLUHC) announced a new long-term plan for locally led housing development, including plans to expand Cambridge. DLUHC intends this to enable significant housing and business development in a new section of the city, while the business case for EWR depends on development along the rail route.

Government risks the planning for both projects being at cross purposes. The two departments are now working together to align plans ahead of EWR Co’s statutory consultation on the EWR route, planned for 2024.

DfT’s cost-benefit analysis suggests that the costs of the project may outweigh the benefits. In 2021, DfT assessed that every £1 spent on the project would result in between 50p and £1.10 in benefits.3 The calculated benefits have reduced further since then; DfT estimates that there would be between 30p and 60p of benefits for every £1 spent on connection stages 2 and 3. However, these assessments do not quantify the benefit from the wider aims of the project to transform the economy of the region. DfT has concluded, most recently in May 2023, that there is a strong strategic case for the project.4

DFT has not yet decided how to power EWR trains, so the projected costs do not include the costs of electrifying the line. The department is committed to achieving a net zero carbon emissions rail network by 2050 and wants to remove diesel-only trains from UK railways by 2040. Initial estimates suggested that full electrification of the line could cost up to £1 billion. However, DfT and EWR Co are considering options, including partial electrification or alternative approaches to full electrification of the line, which they consider could be delivered at a lower cost.

EWR Co is coordinating activity with local authorities, universities, local enterprise partnerships and England’s Economic Heartland5 to identify growth opportunities at stations along the EWR route. The company still has more to do to respond to the concerns6 of local residents, some of which could be negatively affected by the project and are unhappy with how EWR Co has engaged with them.

HM Treasury has recently established a cross-government board (the Board) to support the development of a shared vision for growth associated with EWR. To improve the chances of unlocking the economic benefits from its investment, the NAO recommends that DLUHC, DfT and the Board should establish effective cross-department governance that complements and bolsters the local stakeholder partnerships being created in the region, to focus on achieving the benefits of East West Rail.

    "The rationale for East West Rail rests on its wider strategic aims of increasing economic growth in the Oxford to Cambridge region.

    “To maximise the economic benefits from its investment in East West Rail, government must ensure stronger strategic alignment between departments and with wider local growth initiatives, so that there is a shared, coherent vision for the future of the region, and the contribution that the East West Rail project will make to it is clear.”
    Gareth Davies, head of the NAO

The full report is linked from here
- a choice of three versions (I've not yet looked at any of them).

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ellendune at 15:29, 13th December 2023
 
May be the camera angles, but there seem to be some heroic gradients now!

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 15:19, 13th December 2023
 
Just seen on another forum - quoting X/Twitter - that they’ve now joined up the track (the down Bletchley or eastbound side) at the EWR/HS2 overbridge site, at Calvert. 

I’d expect the up side will be done by the Balfour Beatty track construction machine in the next few days, it’s only a few hundred metres yet to do, that will be a major milestone achieved.

Link to X/Twitter:  https://twitter.com/marshrail/status/1734946741596610778?s=46

Paul

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Red Squirrel at 13:14, 14th June 2023
 

...I think that the South Wales Metro is going to be a real eye-opener when it's complete and the English see the difference a decent regional metro makes.


Indeed. We've been watching enviously from our side of the Afon Hafren.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Noggin at 12:24, 14th June 2023
 
Personally I can’t think of any rail project that is more likely to be a huge success than this one.

Yes, huge potential as a regional metro given the huge success of Cambridge and Oxford in attracting investment yet the dearth of affordable housing, even for higher paid employees.

Even better if someone had the vision to run some long-distance express services - I imagine Bristol to Cambridge would work quite well as a corridor, as would fast Norwich and Ipswich to Cambridge I suspect. 

As for other projects, without understating E-W rail, I think that the South Wales Metro is going to be a real eye-opener when it's complete and the English see the difference a decent regional metro makes.


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 09:54, 14th June 2023
 
Personally I can’t think of any rail project that is more likely to be a huge success than this one.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Red Squirrel at 08:28, 14th June 2023
 
I’ve seen a recent video presentation by Richard Fuller in which he claims he originally supported East West Rail. If this is the case, it was a fleeting flirtation that never (as far as I can tell) made it into print.

He wrote a piece for the Telegraph in 2017 describing it as a ‘white elephant’ and a waste of taxpayers’ money. He also secured a debate in 2021 in which he called for it to be scrapped.

Fuller has strong links with more than one Tufton Street Think Tank.


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 23:23, 13th June 2023
 
Odd. I thought that Roman roads, built in straight lines, were as a result often much hillier than later highways. In any case, Cambridge to Bedford is pretty flat by general standards.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 21:10, 13th June 2023
 
From the Press and Journal

Proposed Oxford to Cambridge railway line compared with Britain’s bendiest road

Richard Fuller, Conservative MP for North East Bedfordshire, claimed a proposed section of the East West Rail line running between Bedford and Cambridge was “full of twists and turns, and ups and downs”.

[snip]

“Back when governments and other people knew how to build railways in the Victorian age, of course they chose a straighter, less hilly route.”

I understood that the flatness of early railway lines was due to the limited traction from locomotives, and these days they can slope a lot more in order to go a route that's less expensive to construct.  The honourable member for North East Bedfordshire is, perhaps, protesting that his team or iron horses could not cope with the ups and down and would get tired by the longer distances - or am I thinking of the honourable member for North East Somerset in his carriage?


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 14:26, 28th May 2023
 
I 'liked' this from the same page on the EWR website 'Under powering our trains':

"We’re focused on delivering a net zero carbon railway. We’re continuing to evaluate a range of technological solutions for powering our trains and we’ll share more information at the statutory consultation."

Anybody want to save EWR (and therefore the country) a few pounds by telling them the answer to this statement without needing to do an evaluation or consultation and a clue the answer isn't hybrid or diesel trains?

That would only be net zero if they sign up to a 100% green energy tariff, the one with a picture of a flower and a wind turbine on the bill.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by bradshaw at 08:09, 27th May 2023
 
And trains will stop there on Wednesdays

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by GBM at 06:17, 27th May 2023
 
It's easy to tell the difference between the two. Cambridge North has a week-round service, whereas Cambourne...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axHV2wx8RA
The Cornish Camborne doesn't contain a U 

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by eightonedee at 22:25, 26th May 2023
 
To be fair, the background is that the original "preferred" route involved an alignment along the approximate line of the A428, before diverging south around the Eltisley Turn to run along the south-west boundary of the built-up (or planned) current extent of Cambourne, with a station on the south side (between Cambourne and Caxton). This has a lot of sense - there's a valley running along this alignment that makes an obvious route for running south-east to pick up the old alignment of the former Cambridge-Bedford line.

The change means that it looks likely to use the land left between the old A428 and the alignment of the new dual-carriageway constructed in phases between 1998 and the present day, so the station moves from the south to the north of the new town. I imagine that the earthworks and associated engineering works involved in then getting the line down to the old Cambridge-Bedford formation to approach Cambridge from the south (about 50-60m of elevation) will be more costly.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 15:58, 26th May 2023
 
Route update including the chosen route for Bedford–Cambridge (new station at Tempsford, then via Cambourne North, approaching Cambridge from the south):

I read that as "Cambridge North" not "Cambourne North" - I wonder if people will get confused.   Are there main line platforms too at Tempsford?  Without them I would imagine the local reception of the new station might be mixed. 
The detailed report does refer to a “new ECML station” at Tempsford.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Richard Fairhurst at 15:07, 26th May 2023
 
It's easy to tell the difference between the two. Cambridge North has a week-round service, whereas Cambourne...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axHV2wx8RA

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 13:00, 26th May 2023
 
Route update including the chosen route for Bedford–Cambridge (new station at Tempsford, then via Cambourne North, approaching Cambridge from the south):

I read that as "Cambridge North" not "Cambourne North" - I wonder if people will get confused.   Are there main line platforms too at Tempsford?  Without them I would imagine the local reception of the new station might be mixed. 

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ray951 at 12:36, 26th May 2023
 
I 'liked' this from the same page on the EWR website 'Under powering our trains':

"We’re focused on delivering a net zero carbon railway. We’re continuing to evaluate a range of technological solutions for powering our trains and we’ll share more information at the statutory consultation."

Anybody want to save EWR (and therefore the country) a few pounds by telling them the answer to this statement without needing to do an evaluation or consultation and a clue the answer isn't hybrid or diesel trains?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Richard Fairhurst at 11:26, 26th May 2023
 
Route update including the chosen route for Bedford–Cambridge (new station at Tempsford, then via Cambourne North, approaching Cambridge from the south):

https://eastwestrail.co.uk/routeupdate

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 09:50, 6th April 2023
 
From DfT

The East West Rail (EWR) Project is set to introduce new rail services between Oxford and Cambridge in 3 distinct phases referred to as connection stages 1 to 3 (CS1 to CS3).

CS1 aims to introduce passenger services between Oxford and Milton Keynes between December 2024 and September 2025.

This prior information notice notifies industry that the government intends to negotiate an amendment to the current Chiltern national rail contract (NRC) for the introduction of CS1 services under that contract.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 10:55, 21st March 2023
 
From New Civil Engineer


Communication of the benefits of East West Rail (EWR) will focus on the economic prospects for the region resulting from the work rather than the journey time benefits required by the Department for Transport business case documents.

UK Infrastructure Bank non-executive director Bridget Rosewell, who was a commissioner for the National Infrastructure Commission until January this year, said at an Westminster Forum event on Next steps for the Oxford to Cambridge region that EWR had learned lessons from how High Speed 2 (HS2) handled the business case data.

Rosewell said: “HS2 did indeed lose the publicity battle – and I did warn them about this in 2005 – that if you say its about saving 20 minutes on the trip to Birmingham, you will lose. However, those are the transport criteria [needed for the Department for Transport (DfT) business case] and it is not about capacity, it is not about jobs or any of the things that you think a business case should be about.”

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 19:44, 28th September 2022
 
A few images showing progress on East West Rail between Bicester and Launton I took today:

1)  From the new Charbridge Way footbridge in Bicester looking under the replacement Charbridge Lane road bridge and beyond towards Launton with a Class 66 waiting duties.

2 and 3)  From the new Grange Farm footbridge, Launton, looking towards Bicester.  One track laid waiting ballast, the other still to be laid.  A temporary crossover to allow engineering train access visible in the zoom shot along with the Class 66.  This bridge has replaced three former foot crossings on the route.

4)  From the same footbridge looking towards Launton.  Another Class 66 heads a construction train in the distance which is by the new Station Road bridge at Launton, which replaced a level crossing on the old line.  This long zoom shot shows how straight the alignment is, and it's a lot less bumpy than the shortened perspective suggests!

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:52, 13th September 2022
 
Detailed update of the progress of the project:

https://sway.office.com/8LrERvg8WBAKMOrn?ref=Link&loc=play

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 08:41, 6th September 2022
 
Is E-W to be put into the Portishead permaloop?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 06:43, 6th September 2022
 
From the BBC

Campaigners fighting a £5bn rail project have said they just "want somebody to make a decision".

Bedford's Protect Poets group oppose the East-West Rail link being built between Oxford and Cambridge.

When doubt was cast on its future in July, the Department of Transport (DfT) said it would be decided by the new prime minister, now known as Liz Truss.

East-West Rail said it would "work closely with the new government to make important decisions".

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 19:47, 29th July 2022
 
They do actually separate the “connection stage 1” from Bicester to Bletchley, currently well under way, from stages 2&3. It seems to me they just weren’t expecting the level of objections from the affected areas of Cambridgeshire and Bedfordshire, especially through Bedford and in the Cambridge approaches. 

Typical objection theory I think went something like this …
Network Rail mention the network advantages of the infrastructure allowing for an hourly freight path. Objectors print leaflets stating that there will definitely be 24 freight trains each way, every day, all week…   

Paul

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by eightonedee at 18:44, 29th July 2022
 
Further bad news on this project - an annual review of major infrastructure projects has rated this as in the "red" (project looks to be unachievable in current form) category - see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092181/IPA_AR2022.pdf

at page 54. Implementation of the Williams report seems also to be in this category (see page 55).

I am alone in feeling despair at the inability to take this forward?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 16:49, 29th July 2022
 
Well, he ain't gonna be PM, and may not even be Transport Secretary when Penny gets the keys to No. 10.

Which is unlikely to be before 2029, and probably never.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 14:48, 29th July 2022
 
Not about EWR possibly, but Truss yesterday promised many millions to get Northern Powerhouse Rail project completed.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 06:08, 15th July 2022
 
Well, he ain't gonna be PM, and may not even be Transport Secretary when Penny gets the keys to No. 10.

I don't see any of the candidates being particularly public transport friendly - in fact I read rather the reverse into the policies that some are touting. https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2022/07/uk-make-trains-free-to-use

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by JayMac at 02:03, 15th July 2022
 
Well, he ain't gonna be PM, and may not even be Transport Secretary when Penny gets the keys to No. 10.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 22:36, 14th July 2022
 
From The Bedford Independent

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has said that he believes the remaining phases of the East West Rail project should be scrapped.

Speaking to LBC earlier this week, Mr Shapps made the revelation while talking about what he would do to cut spending if he were Prime Minister.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 19:59, 6th April 2022
 
Removing electrification of the current build phase was certainly not showing sufficient ambition.

Well they won’t want to be caught out when the UK dilithium crystal deposits are found… 

(you can beam me up now…)

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by didcotdean at 16:02, 6th April 2022
 
Removing electrification of the current build phase was certainly not showing sufficient ambition.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by paul7575 at 14:42, 6th April 2022
 
Network Rail still chipping away at getting it electrified; on page 52:

Electrification would offer rolling stock performance benefits alongside better alignment with Network Rail’s ongoing Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy in making sure that the new infrastructure does not form a ‘diesel island’ within the wider network.17 Further infill electrification projects would be required on the wider network to achieve fully electrified East West Main Line routes and should be factored into a long-term strategy which places East West Rail infrastructure as a significant core section of a decarbonised network.



Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Bmblbzzz at 11:56, 6th April 2022
 
Meanwhile on page 73

Swindon has an important knowledge sector
and is also a key market for financial and
professional services with Zurich, Capita and
Nationwide all based in the city. Swindon’s
Honda manufacturing plant is also evidence of
the importance of the engineering sector in the
town

Of course Swindon is not a city and no longer has Honda.....
According to that quote it's both a city and a town!

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 10:58, 6th April 2022
 
It’s a vision I’ve been a big fan of, and pushing, for many years.  I’ll have a read of the document later, but this is good news.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 10:53, 6th April 2022
 
Six months on, and Network Rail has signed up to the "more through services" vision:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/North,%20West%20and%20Central/East%20West%20Main%20Line%20Strategic%20Statement%202022.pdf

It essentially says that without through running beyond Oxford and Bedford/Cambridge, EWR's benefits will be restricted to the immediate local corridor - because changing at London will remain more attractive for other journeys.

Lots of interesting tables in the PDF, but the map on p50 is particularly intriguing, basically envisaging EWR becoming a "southern CrossCountry".

A lot of the unlocking of this, and other routes, will be the new train operating model being rolled out by DfT and NR as part of the move to GBR

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by bobm at 10:44, 6th April 2022
 
Meanwhile on page 73

Swindon has an important knowledge sector
and is also a key market for financial and
professional services with Zurich, Capita and
Nationwide all based in the city. Swindon’s
Honda manufacturing plant is also evidence of
the importance of the engineering sector in the
town

Of course Swindon is not a city and no longer has Honda.....

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Richard Fairhurst at 09:32, 6th April 2022
 
Six months on, and Network Rail has signed up to the "more through services" vision:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/regional-long-term-planning/North,%20West%20and%20Central/East%20West%20Main%20Line%20Strategic%20Statement%202022.pdf

It essentially says that without through running beyond Oxford and Bedford/Cambridge, EWR's benefits will be restricted to the immediate local corridor - because changing at London will remain more attractive for other journeys.

Lots of interesting tables in the PDF, but the map on p50 is particularly intriguing, basically envisaging EWR becoming a "southern CrossCountry".

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by stuving at 16:19, 30th September 2021
 
The East West Rail Consortium has rebranded as the East West Main Line Partnership, seemingly to emphasise their desire for trains to continue west of Oxford and east of Cambridge: https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/2021/09/30/east-west-rail-consortium-relaunches-as-the-east-west-main-line-partnership/

I take it this is the core of their wish list:
With construction of the Oxford-Bletchley/ Milton Keynes section of East West Rail well underway, the Partnership is championing the long term opportunity for true, coast to coast connectivity, achieved through an East West Main Line, with services running from Norfolk and Suffolk all the way through to South Wales.

The Partnership has six key areas of focus for the East West Main Line:
 
  •    Oxford-Cambridge: Working with our partners to support delivery at the earliest opportunity, and no later than 2030
  •    Coast-to-coast connectivity: Realising opportunities east of Cambridge to Norwich and Ipswich; and west of Oxford to Swindon, Bristol and South Wales
  •     North-south connectivity: Including the Aylesbury-Milton Keynes link and opportunities for new journeys using intersection with radial main lines
  •     Interchange and strategic transport hubs: Frictionless interchange, including with other modes
  •     A 21st century main line: Ensuring East West Rail supports the environment and the communities it serves. This includes making it electrified and ‘digitally-enabled’ (providing digital connectivity to nearby communities) from the start. It must also be built with communities at its heart – with appropriate mitigation during construction, and quality local connectivity to stations when it is opened
  •     Freight: Ensuring East West Rail contributes to the requirements of the national rail freight strategy, while also making the strongest case for prioritisation of the Felixstowe-Nuneaton corridor.

Here, "connectivity" appears to mean through trains. When Network Rail started writing reports about it a few years back, their concept was centred on well-planned changes and especially cross-platform changes usable both ways between two trains. Far more station pairs can be linked that way with a single change, of course.

I can see a shadow of that in what DfT said about the proposed SWR changes, in words since reused:
These proposals will allow South Western Railway and Great Western Railway to consider how to provide attractive connections at Salisbury, whilst recognising the constraints of operating a reliable railway through many complex junctions on both routes, and the single line sections west of Salisbury.

I think you are allowed to be just a wee bit sceptical about what such "considering" would lead to in practice. I don't see there being much of an appetite for extending East-West services very far at NR, DfT, or their expected child GBR.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Richard Fairhurst at 15:41, 30th September 2021
 
The East West Rail Consortium has rebranded as the East West Main Line Partnership, seemingly to emphasise their desire for trains to continue west of Oxford and east of Cambridge: https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/2021/09/30/east-west-rail-consortium-relaunches-as-the-east-west-main-line-partnership/

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 14:11, 4th July 2021
 

If we need to get to a decarbonised society as soon as possible then I suggest writing to Mr Xi and Mr Modi urgently...


I agree. The best way to start the letter would be "Dear Mr Xi and Mr Modi, We have converted all of our railway lines to electricity. We have closed down all of our coal and gas power stations. Would you like us to show you how we did it?"

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 13:38, 4th July 2021
 
Some good points made above along the lines of 'better to get something that is positive in some respects, but not ideal, than to hold out for perfect and get nothing'... That is a very convincing argument in the short term, and if we can do it without building any more diesel trains then I think that argument does work. My big worry is that not electrifying EWR from day one will contribute to (or result in) another order for diesel-mechanical multiple units.
If I have correctly understood recent reports in the railway journals, front runner for the rolling stock for this line will be a small number of the Class 196 units being constructed for West Midland Trains.

It has always been intended that hand-me-down or second hand stock would be used for the initial section Oxford - Bletchley - Milton Keynes in order to keep the capital requirements to a minimum.

We need to get to a decarbonised society as soon as possible and Network Rail's vision for what a decarbonised railway would look like (the TDNS) has no place for a large number of trains that cannot collect traction electricity from overhead wires and/or third/fourth rail. Thanks to Northern's class 195 order, Britain is already in a position where it will have more non-electric trains in 2050 than will be needed on a decarbonised railway, and Transport for Wales (TfW) is busy making this suituation even worse with their build of 77 more pure DMUs. If we want a decarbonised railway by 2050, we must reduce TfW's order and not order any more diesel-only trains.
If we need to get to a decarbonised society as soon as possible then I suggest writing to Mr Xi and Mr Modi urgently...

The railway will never be completely 'decarbonised' - there are too many situations where the power of diesel engines will be needed where no external electrical supply is possible. Heavy civil engineering work comes to mind for a start.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Rhydgaled at 16:21, 3rd July 2021
 
Some good points made above along the lines of 'better to get something that is positive in some respects, but not ideal, than to hold out for perfect and get nothing'... That is a very convincing argument in the short term, and if we can do it without building any more diesel trains then I think that argument does work. My big worry is that not electrifying EWR from day one will contribute to (or result in) another order for diesel-mechanical multiple units.

We need to get to a decarbonised society as soon as possible and Network Rail's vision for what a decarbonised railway would look like (the TDNS) has no place for a large number of trains that cannot collect traction electricity from overhead wires and/or third/fourth rail. Thanks to Northern's class 195 order, Britain is already in a position where it will have more non-electric trains in 2050 than will be needed on a decarbonised railway, and Transport for Wales (TfW) is busy making this suituation even worse with their build of 77 more pure DMUs. If we want a decarbonised railway by 2050, we must reduce TfW's order and not order any more diesel-only trains.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by TonyK at 16:50, 2nd July 2021
 
There are threads specifically devoted to issues of climate change and greening of the country, which wouldn't stop a thread on the colour of waistcoats worn by catering staff from entering discussion on whether China and Germany expanding coal-fired power stations is going to negate our own efforts to make things better, so all I will say for now is that China will surprise us all in a few years time, but is irrelevant to arguments about electrifying railways here. One day, all railways will be electric, for the reasons put forward by Red Squirrel, as well as environment improvement.

For the East-West line, it looks odd to be building a diesel line at a time when government is getting rid of diesel on roads where it can, but an electric island surrounded by existing unpowered lines would bring more problems than it would solve. I think, like grahame, that here, and on any other line being built or substantially engineered, at least passive provision for electrification should be made. By that, I mean at least up to and including the installation of the bases for OHLE pylons. The extra cost would be a fraction of that which will be incurred in fitting them to a busy live railway.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 12:33, 2nd July 2021
 
One of the things I've learned in campaigning is to have a strong technical discussion of all the options, but then to move on to accept and support fully what's on offer if it's good-to-excellent rather than holding out for the near-perfect.   Campaigning for an "appropriate" train service for Melksham, best evaluation was that an hourly service would be ideal; we accepted and continue to support a service every 2 to 2.5 hours, but did NOT press forward earlier suggestions of adding only a couple of middle-of-the-day (off peak as was) journeys.

I am going to suggest that a passenger train service and a freight route from Oxford to / via Bletchley to Bedford with prospects / plans onwards to Cambridge and with reasonably frequent trains is worthy of support, even if they are diesel powered; perhaps that's far from ideal, but it's also far, far better than nothing. I would strongly encourage "passive provision" for future electrification in works done to safeguard that option for a potential following phase.  And my logic is that I think the service as suggested (but not electric) can and will succeed, and can and will gain local sentiment and support.  There is an element of possibility that failing to electrify at the stage will push that back in the queue - "you've already had one big tranche of investment" - but that is a risk that should be accepted.
I 100% agree with your analysis.

Get it working, show that it fulfils a need at a price people are prepared to pay and then think about improvements.

Any delay in starting will push costs up and make it even more difficult to persuade those with control of the money to spend it on your pet project.

This is, I suggest, the reason that Network Rail is pushing ahead to get the Okehampton re-opening to happen as quickly as possible — to build confidence that its engineering planning and cost control can complete projects to time and budget. Once it has some successes under its belt — and after the Great Western electrification fiasco[1] it badly needs them — then one hopes that gaining approval for other, bigger, projects will be easier.

[1] It should be noted that much of the fault lies with the Department for Transport in not knowing what it wanted and then changing its mind anyway.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 06:53, 2nd July 2021
 
One of the things I've learned in campaigning is to have a strong technical discussion of all the options, but then to move on to accept and support fully what's on offer if it's good-to-excellent rather than holding out for the near-perfect.   Campaigning for an "appropriate" train service for Melksham, best evaluation was that an hourly service would be ideal; we accepted and continue to support a service every 2 to 2.5 hours, but did NOT press forward earlier suggestions of adding only a couple of middle-of-the-day (off peak as was) journeys.

I am going to suggest that a passenger train service and a freight route from Oxford to / via Bletchley to Bedford with prospects / plans onwards to Cambridge and with reasonably frequent trains is worthy of support, even if they are diesel powered; perhaps that's far from ideal, but it's also far, far better than nothing. I would strongly encourage "passive provision" for future electrification in works done to safeguard that option for a potential following phase.  And my logic is that I think the service as suggested (but not electric) can and will succeed, and can and will gain local sentiment and support.  There is an element of possibility that failing to electrify at the stage will push that back in the queue - "you've already had one big tranche of investment" - but that is a risk that should be accepted.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 22:28, 1st July 2021
 
...but is a reason not to waste capital on an electrification scheme which will, at best, make a marginal change in emission levels in its early years.

Except it's not just about emissions, is it? Once the initial outlay has been made, electric trains are cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, faster, quieter, and put less wear on the track. It pays for itself over time.
Certainly electric trains should be simpler to maintain than diesels and therefore cost less to run. I am not convinced they are faster[1] — on this route the line limit is 100mph and these days any common or garden DMU can reach these speeds easily. Acceleration is another issue and the marginal cost of additional power in a pure electric unit to achieve higher rates is less than that of a diesel unit, so here they do have an advantage.[2]

Quieter? Hmm. Modern DMUs are a lot quieter than earlier models because of, inter alia, the exhaust gas treatment. The days of the ear-shattering Perkins or Cummings are over.

The less wear on the track because of the reduced mass is true if the suspension designs are comparable. By all reports modern suspensions don’t seem to be as customer friendly as those of a generation back so I think that the jury is still out.

Apart from the amortisation costs of the initial outlay, one thing you have omitted is the cost of maintenance of the overhead wires which is peculiar to electric trains. I understand that with well designed and installed kit this is not excessive - but it still has to be considered.

Electric traction has its place in high density, high speed (greater than 125mph) railway operation with long trains. I am not convinced of the case for electrification for 4 coach trains running every 30 minutes between medium sized towns.

[1] The diesel HST was faster than any UK train, diesel or electric, when it was introduced and as fast as many continental European electric trains. Electric traction is only needed for speeds greater than this as the drag increases with the square of the speed.

[2]  Booster batteries in a DMU for the acceleration phase and regerative braking energy recovery could remove some if not most of the advantages of a pure electric train.

The future needs to be electric if we are serious about climate change.
Each individual scheme is indeed negligible on a global scale. But there is no hope for the environment if everyone says  "my bit/this bit is too small to matter"
Depends on the mix of primary energy into the generating system. Electricity is only non-polluting at the point of conversion.

I am also serious about climate change - and, all other things being equal, lots of small reductions can make a difference.

But all the other things are not equal. The effect of any small changes you may make personally will be nullified in a couple of seconds by the increase in coal-fired plant in China, India, Indonesia (https://reneweconomy.com.au/indonesia-begins-first-slow-steps-towards-ditching-coal-to-stop-new-plants/) and other places.

The only effective way to reduce emissions significantly is to reduce our dependence on goods and services produced by cheap coal in China.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by broadgage at 19:17, 1st July 2021
 
The future needs to be electric if we are serious about climate change.
Each individual scheme is indeed negligible on a global scale. But there is no hope for the environment if everyone says  "my bit/this bit is too small to matter"

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Red Squirrel at 23:40, 30th June 2021
 
...but is a reason not to waste capital on an electrification scheme which will, at best, make a marginal change in emission levels in its early years.

Except it's not just about emissions, is it? Once the initial outlay has been made, electric trains are cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, faster, quieter, and put less wear on the track. It pays for itself over time.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 22:03, 30th June 2021
 
Running electric trains instead of diesels on this stretch will not make a scintilla of difference to the global output of carbon dioxide - the planet doesn't care from whereabouts the carbon dioxide was emitted.

I was with you until I came to this.  Yes it will make a difference, because a large number of small changes is what we need to do.  Me walking on a short journey rather than take the car will make only a small difference, but if we all do it....

Itworls the other way as well.  If we all say my small change will make no difference there will be no change . 
I suggest that one looks at the small savings that we as individuals can/could make and compare the size of them it to the situation regarding emissions in China and India.

In each of the last two years China has added the equivalent of the entire generating capacity of the UK to its electricity plant inventory. Admittedly the utilisation is quite low, but even 50% of the total is still a huge quantity. See, for example, https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-will-china-build-hundreds-of-new-coal-plants-in-the-2020s or https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut-emissions-china-goes-on-a-coal-spree

Making little savings may give one a virtuous feeling, but these savings will be totally and completely swamped by what is happening elsewhere. After all, there are some 65 million people in the UK — and some 1.4 billion in China, over 20 times as many. If the entire UK electrical generating plant were to be switched off now, in a years time the equivalent coal-fired capacity will be newly available in China. And another equivalent UK system the year after that.

The significant changes will have to happen in China and India if carbon dioxide emissions are to be contained or reduced. The numbers show it. Which is no reason for us to stop building windmills in the North Sea, but is a reason not to waste capital on an electrification scheme which will, at best, make a marginal change in emission levels in its early years.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ellendune at 21:34, 30th June 2021
 
Running electric trains instead of diesels on this stretch will not make a scintilla of difference to the global output of carbon dioxide - the planet doesn't care from whereabouts the carbon dioxide was emitted.

I was with you until I came to this.  Yes it will make a difference, because a large number of small changes is what we need to do.  Me walking on a short journey rather than take the car will make only a small difference, but if we all do it....

Itworls the other way as well.  If we all say my small change will make no difference there will be no change . 

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 19:28, 30th June 2021
 
Many posters seem to have forgotten the old saw 'the best is the enemy of the good'.

The initial stretch of re-built railway from Oxford to Bletchley is just over 30 miles long, probably about 35 to Milton Keynes. A 100mph train will do the run in less than an hour with intermediate stops.

A power unit of a bit less than 400kW under each coach permits a top speed of 100mph. The line will not be re-engineered for higher speeds as this will require land take to ease curves and some increased spacings between tracks and between tracks and fixed items. The extra power available to an electric train from the overhead wires is not needed for this service.

A diesel power pack of some 400kW, even including all the extra exhaust treatment needed to meet the current regulations is a lot cheaper than all the electrification equipment - feeder stations, connections to the grid or distribution network operator, control systems, masts, supports, wires, tensioners and so on. These costs would have to be amortised over a service of two trains per hour in each direction, slightly offset by the additional maintenance costs of the diesel power packs.

This is all about economics, the ecological argument holds no water. The total UK electrical generating capacity is around 35GW in a mix of gas, wind, coal and nuclear. Last year (2020) China added about the same amount in coal-fired capacity alone, India somewhat less. More will be added in the years to come.

Running electric trains instead of diesels on this stretch will not make a scintilla of difference to the global output of carbon dioxide - the planet doesn't care from whereabouts the carbon dioxide was emitted.

But it does make sense to get the trains running as soon as possible at the lowest initial capital expenditure to demonstrate that there is indeed a market for such a service. As traffic builds and train services are extended off the ends of the current stretch, then that is the time to look at electrification.

But — get the trains running first.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Rhydgaled at 16:26, 28th June 2021
 
It does 'feel' sensible with all the work being done that everything should be done at once - electrify the darned thing while you rebuild it must be cheaper in the long term than taking two major engineering bites?
I agree - electrify while rebuilding it and only then introduce train services. Obviously you would then need bi-modes (or leave the electrification infrustructure unused at first*) since Bletchley-Bedford isn't being rebuilt yet and Oxford-Bicester has already been through the 'rebuilding' but without electrification.

I suppose, if it isn't electrified while being rebuilt, it might not be the only route treated thus. this reply I had from Transport Scotland on Twitter recently suggests that the Levenmouth reopenning will be built as a diesel railway even though electrification is confirmed to be delivered eventually.

* I guess on this point it depends when you can get Oxford station wired - as someone else has said it is too big a job for this to come purely from the EWR budget. If Oxford station was scheduled to be wired only a year after EWR opens then it might make sense just to wire from Oxford Parkway or Bicester to Bletchley (with a connection to the existing electrified WCML) before openning EWR and run diesels under those wires until Oxford station gets wired up.

Once Didcot-Oxford-Bletchley is wired the Oxford - Milton Keynes service could be run using 387s. The Oxford-Bedford would need bi-modes (I'm still waiting for a fleet of regional express bi-modes - like 444s but with a pantograph and a diesel mode).

EastWest Rail lends its self to future electrification provided if new units are purchased they have an electrical traction system and not mechanical also the capability to have Pans and transformers fitted at a future date
If it isn't wired initially then, ultimately, the traction system on the units used on EWR doesn't matter. They could (as I understand is rumoured) use class 196s cascaded from West Midlands Trains (which I understand are mechanical units) - what matters is that any new units purchased (regardless of where they are intended to be used) are either EMUs or have an electrical traction system and the capability to have pantographs and transformers easily (ie. at low cost and without an extended period out of service) fitted at a future date. If leaving EWR unwired causes more mechanical DMUs to be built for some other area then that is still digging us deeper into the hole we are already in thanks to Northern's class 195s and TfW's class 197s (the class 196 order is sufficiently small that there are enough routes with zero under-wires running in Network Rail's TDNS plan to utilise most of them).

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 18:54, 27th June 2021
 
I'm not sure that the price difference between electrifying the line while it is under construction and electrifying it after completion is that great.

I understand that, as a rule of thumb, about half the cost of electrifying an existing line is the cost of getting it ready to be electrified, that is sorting out signal cabling runs, clearing the drains and relocating them where necessary, rebuilding bridges to permit wires, closing level crossings, realigning the track where necessary, signalling and so on and so forth.

All this work will have been done in order to reopen the railway and the position of the services will be known - this removes roughly half the cost of electrification. This means that when the time comes to electrify the remaining tasks that needs to be done on the plain line is installation of the feeder points and other electrical supply gubbins, the planting of the masts and the running of the wires. All these things can be done off-line or during nighttime possessions without needing a blockade.

Can someone confirm when all the clearance work is being done.  Obviously new structures will have electrification clearances, but are they upgrading existing structures for electrification?

Most of the clearance has been done, including demolition of the old Wimslow station building.  Bletchley flyover has had its old decks removed and replaced

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by stuving at 16:16, 27th June 2021
 
I'm not sure that the price difference between electrifying the line while it is under construction and electrifying it after completion is that great.

I understand that, as a rule of thumb, about half the cost of electrifying an existing line is the cost of getting it ready to be electrified, that is sorting out signal cabling runs, clearing the drains and relocating them where necessary, rebuilding bridges to permit wires, closing level crossings, realigning the track where necessary, signalling and so on and so forth.

All this work will have been done in order to reopen the railway and the position of the services will be known - this removes roughly half the cost of electrification. This means that when the time comes to electrify the remaining tasks that needs to be done on the plain line is installation of the feeder points and other electrical supply gubbins, the planting of the masts and the running of the wires. All these things can be done off-line or during nighttime possessions without needing a blockade.

Can someone confirm when all the clearance work is being done.  Obviously new structures will have electrification clearances, but are they upgrading existing structures for electrification?

According to the TWAO, and the inspector's report for that, existing structures are not to be altered specifically for electrification. All new structures will have the required clearances. As a result, some bridges originally planned for replacement would need some work, included raising parapets.

The inspector refers to NR's submission: "Document NR211: Replacing existing bridges between Bicester and Bletchley to enable electrification would cost approximately £34.5 million". (Elsewhere their number is given as five.) I can't see a similar figure for Bletchley to Bedford.

The inspector also made this explicit judgement: "However, I am satisfied that options are open to provide in the future electrification, increased platform lengths and improved capacity, if demand requires it and the funding is available."

The eastern section will be subject to National Infrastructure Planning, rather than the old TWA process, and its current status is listed as "pre-application".

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ellendune at 08:00, 27th June 2021
 
I'm not sure that the price difference between electrifying the line while it is under construction and electrifying it after completion is that great.

I understand that, as a rule of thumb, about half the cost of electrifying an existing line is the cost of getting it ready to be electrified, that is sorting out signal cabling runs, clearing the drains and relocating them where necessary, rebuilding bridges to permit wires, closing level crossings, realigning the track where necessary, signalling and so on and so forth.

All this work will have been done in order to reopen the railway and the position of the services will be known - this removes roughly half the cost of electrification. This means that when the time comes to electrify the remaining tasks that needs to be done on the plain line is installation of the feeder points and other electrical supply gubbins, the planting of the masts and the running of the wires. All these things can be done off-line or during nighttime possessions without needing a blockade.

Can someone confirm when all the clearance work is being done.  Obviously new structures will have electrification clearances, but are they upgrading existing structures for electrification?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by 4064ReadingAbbey at 19:43, 26th June 2021
 
From the BBC

It is of "paramount importance" that a £5bn direct rail line between Oxford and Cambridge uses electric trains, an MP has said.

The East West Rail project aims to connect the university cities by the end of the decade, but its electrification is yet to be confirmed.

MP Layla Moran said: "We're in a climate emergency. No rail line should be designed for diesel by default."

And noting

A DfT spokesperson said: "The government is committed to decarbonising East West Rail by 2050, and a review is being undertaken to look at all long-term options for electrification."

It does 'feel' sensible with all the work being done that everything should be done at once - electrify the darned thing while you rebuild it must be cheaper in the long term than taking two major engineering bites?
I'm not sure that the price difference between electrifying the line while it is under construction and electrifying it after completion is that great.

I understand that, as a rule of thumb, about half the cost of electrifying an existing line is the cost of getting it ready to be electrified, that is sorting out signal cabling runs, clearing the drains and relocating them where necessary, rebuilding bridges to permit wires, closing level crossings, realigning the track where necessary, signalling and so on and so forth.

All this work will have been done in order to reopen the railway and the position of the services will be known - this removes roughly half the cost of electrification. This means that when the time comes to electrify the remaining tasks that needs to be done on the plain line is installation of the feeder points and other electrical supply gubbins, the planting of the masts and the running of the wires. All these things can be done off-line or during nighttime possessions without needing a blockade.

Obviously electrification of the stations will be more complex but work at Oxford or Bedford can't really economically start until the track reorganisations have been completed.

In my book it makes perfect sense to delay the wiring - after all the initial train service will not be very intense nor will very long fuel-thirsty trains be running so the ecological argument is weak.

In the longer term electrification would be a sensible solution, but for it to make sense the Oxford end at least would have to be wired and if the cost of wiring Oxford station were to be added to the EWR budget it would break it. Far better to get Oxford wired on the GW's budget or the 'Oxford Corridor' budget and then tack EWR onto it.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Electric train at 09:15, 26th June 2021
 
From the BBC

It is of "paramount importance" that a £5bn direct rail line between Oxford and Cambridge uses electric trains, an MP has said.

The East West Rail project aims to connect the university cities by the end of the decade, but its electrification is yet to be confirmed.

MP Layla Moran said: "We're in a climate emergency. No rail line should be designed for diesel by default."

And noting

A DfT spokesperson said: "The government is committed to decarbonising East West Rail by 2050, and a review is being undertaken to look at all long-term options for electrification."

It does 'feel' sensible with all the work being done that everything should be done at once - electrify the darned thing while you rebuild it must be cheaper in the long term than taking two major engineering bites?

Whilst electrification would have been more carbon neutral, even EastWest Rail using modern diesel powered units is more carbon neutral than the alternative which was a dual carriage way 'A' Road.

EastWest Rail lends its self to future electrification provided if new units are purchased they have an electrical traction system and not mechanical also the capability to have Pans and transformers fitted at a future date

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 11:23, 25th June 2021
 
I think they’re hoping alternative fuels, like the hydrogen trials, might be suitable

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 21:00, 24th June 2021
 
From the BBC

It is of "paramount importance" that a £5bn direct rail line between Oxford and Cambridge uses electric trains, an MP has said.

The East West Rail project aims to connect the university cities by the end of the decade, but its electrification is yet to be confirmed.

MP Layla Moran said: "We're in a climate emergency. No rail line should be designed for diesel by default."

And noting

A DfT spokesperson said: "The government is committed to decarbonising East West Rail by 2050, and a review is being undertaken to look at all long-term options for electrification."

It does 'feel' sensible with all the work being done that everything should be done at once - electrify the darned thing while you rebuild it must be cheaper in the long term than taking two major engineering bites?

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Lee at 07:48, 2nd June 2021
 
Not sure if the closure of Fenny Stratford has come up here before and I have missed it, or it is just coming to attention courtesy of the MK Citizen

Milton Keynes Council has asked rail bosses to think again about a string of controversial proposals in the plans to reopen the Oxford to Cambridge rail line.

The Labour/Lib Dem alliance strongly supports EWR's plans to re-open the line, which will link Oxford and Cambridge via at Bletchley and Bedford.

But to carry out the plan, EWR is proposing to completely close Fenny Stratford station, as well as level crossings in Fenny Stratford and Woburn Sands.

Personal recollection - recent years staying at a hotel near this station and commuting to work just one stop up the line (Bow Brickhill); no easy alternative available - significant walk in to Bletchley if I had caught the train from there, and the journey I took was short but crossed the M1 with no suitable alternative available.

It refers to the controversial "Concept 2" option of the consultation. This would see the 10 Marston Vale stations reduced to 5, with Fenny Stratford, Bow Brickhill and Millbrook stations closed completely, and Aspley Guise/Ridgemont and Stewartby/Kempston Hardwick "merged" apparently having worked with "local stakeholders" to finalise the choices - although they say they are open to alternative proposals on the exact 5 stations mix, but that "Concept 2" must not exceed more than 5 stations in total.

https://eastwestrail-production.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/public/EAS060_ConDoc_290321_Digital_SectionB_DIG.pdf

: East West Rail
We have identified two ways this part of the line could be upgraded:

Concept 1: The existing hourly stopping service would continue to serve all Marston Vale Line stations, with a new limited-stop EWR service calling at two stations – Woburn Sands and Ridgmont – four times an hour.  The hourly stopping service at intermediate stations would enable a change onto a faster EWR train at either Woburn Sands   or Ridgmont, for connections to Oxford   and Cambridge. The ability to change to the faster EWR services at Ridgmont will make journeys from some intermediate stations to either Bletchley or Bedford quicker. Two EWR Oxford - Cambridge trains and two EWR Bletchley - Cambridge each hour would   call at Woburn Sands and Ridgmont.   These trains would take 22 minutes to   travel from Bletchley to Bedford. The   hourly-stopping service would need to   wait in additional sections of track known as ‘passing loops’ to allow faster EWR trains to overtake so may need to run more slowly, and the timetable would be modified. Most of the stations would see minimal - if any – upgrades, but the station at Ridgmont would need to be relocated to enable passing loops to be built and Bedford St Johns station would also be relocated.

Concept 2: There would be five new merged stations on the Marston Vale Line – all five would benefit from at least two EWR services every hour, and some would have four. This would mean more communities have access to more frequent and faster services, direct to more locations.  Two EWR stopping trains would run every hour between Bletchley and Cambridge calling at all five stations. These trains would take 27 minutes to travel from Bletchley to Bedford instead of 42 minutes today. In addition, two EWR OxfordCambridge trains would call at Woburn Sands and Ridgmont. These trains would take 22 minutes to travel from Bletchley   to Bedford. These services would replace the current hourly stopping service and the ten existing intermediate stations would be merged, creating five new modern stations with better facilities in locations more suitable for existing needs and to ensure that the right transport infrastructure is in place for the growth that is already starting to happen in the local area. Some residents would need to travel a little further to their nearest station, but EWR are developing plans for improved pedestrian and cycle routes, as well as working with local stakeholders on better public   transport connections. Given the increased frequency and speed   of the service, even for those who do have   to travel further to the station, overall journey durations are likely to be shorter or at least the same as they are today. Upgraded and new stations would be designed from the start to ensure that onward transport – whether by bike, car, bus or on foot – is convenient and minimises disruption by reducing traffic in constrained  village centres.

Merged stations have been considered in the following locations:

•    Woburn Sands station relocated   a short distance to the west of   the current station

•    Ridgmont station relocated between the current Aspley   Guise and Ridgmont stations   (in a similar location to that required by Concept 1)

•  Lidlington station relocated a short distance to the east of the existing Lidlington station

•  Stewartby station relocated between  the current Stewartby  and  Kempston Hardwick stations

•  Bedford St Johns station relocated a short distance to the south   or west

All of these stations on the line would benefit from direct connections east between Bedford and Cambridge. Woburn Sands and Ridgmont would have direct services to stations   west – like Oxford or Bicester,   whilst for the others this would be   a short interchange. Whilst we have identified these five locations by working with local stakeholders, we are open to your suggestions for alternative merged station options, provided the overall number does not increase beyond five   in Concept 2. Both of these concepts are viable options. We recognise that despite its reliability challenges and low usage, the existing service is important for some members of the community. It would though be a missed opportunity if we were not to at least consider the alternative, given the potential benefits it offers to local residents both today and for the future.

Both of these concepts   would require:

•    Changes to the way vehicles and pedestrians cross the railway, replacing level crossings with safer alternatives to enable a faster, more frequent and more reliable train service 

•  Improvements to the track, including the reinstatement of   a second track between Bletchley and Fenny Stratford

•  A range of improvements to Bletchley station, which would become an important hub with the extension of East West Rail’s services to Bedford   and Cambridge

•    Consideration of how to carry out the required upgrades, which could involve the suspension of the existing train service between Bletchley and Bedford, during the construction period.

•  When we have reviewed responses in relation to these concepts, we will prepare designs in greater detail for each of them, along   with assessments of their effects. We will share these at our statutory consultation. 

•  Details about where to access more information and how to respond to this consultation can   be found in the final section of   this document.

When we have reviewed responses in relation to these concepts, we will prepare designs in greater detail for each of them, along with assessments of their effects.  We will share these at our statutory consultation.

My apologies for some shortcomings in the formatting - I have to rush as I have both Option 24/7 and day job work to complete today.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 06:48, 2nd June 2021
 
Not sure if the closure of Fenny Stratford has come up here before and I have missed it, or it is just coming to attention courtesy of the MK Citizen

Milton Keynes Council has asked rail bosses to think again about a string of controversial proposals in the plans to reopen the Oxford to Cambridge rail line.

The Labour/Lib Dem alliance strongly supports EWR's plans to re-open the line, which will link Oxford and Cambridge via at Bletchley and Bedford.

But to carry out the plan, EWR is proposing to completely close Fenny Stratford station, as well as level crossings in Fenny Stratford and Woburn Sands.

Personal recollection - recent years staying at a hotel near this station and commuting to work just one stop up the line (Bow Brickhill); no easy alternative available - significant walk in to Bletchley if I had caught the train from there, and the journey I took was short but crossed the M1 with no suitable alternative available.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by grahame at 14:43, 17th May 2021
 

The campaign states a northern route into Cambridge would, among other arguments, have at least seven times fewer residents living within 200m (656ft) of the line and less impact on the environment.

But surely we want a new rail link to run through areas with people who might be passengers? ....

Might get less objections for a line from Meldon to Marhamchurch, but would probably get fewer passengers too ...

Trick is getting the line close enough to people's homes for them to support it, but not too close that they turn into objectors!


Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by eightonedee at 14:09, 17th May 2021
 
The following sentence about the group objecting to the southern route from the BBC summary says it all-

The campaign states a northern route into Cambridge would, among other arguments, have at least seven times fewer residents living within 200m (656ft) of the line and less impact on the environment.

But surely we want a new rail link to run through areas with people who might be passengers? The southern route would connect Cambourne new town, a proposed further new settlement at Bourne aerodrome and the growth area at Great Kneighton/Addenbrookes growth area with each other and with the city centre.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ChrisB at 11:52, 17th May 2021
 
Still more hurdles to overcome - check out these two pressure groups blogs -

Cambridge Approaches - https://cambridgeapproaches.org/

Bedford for a Reconsultation - https://bfare.org.uk

The route is far from settled. Neither group like the suggested routes in trhe EWR second consultation

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by IndustryInsider at 11:21, 17th May 2021
 
I'm a big fan of this thread, as 13 years of posts are condensed into 18 pages.  Those 18 pages demonstrate perfectly the hurdles that have to be overcome, together with over ambition, setbacks and inevitable cost increases, in order for anything to actually happen on the ground.

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by Lee at 10:27, 17th May 2021
 
The BBC have published what they call a "simple guide" - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-56988231.amp

Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
Posted by ellendune at 13:23, 2nd April 2021
 
I doubt that you are ever going to find a set of people who would be happy about their homes being demolished.

Agreed, but it does highlight the problem of widening existing railway lines that go through towns.  Imagine what it would take to four track from Rugby to Birmingham (which was proposed previously before HS2 came along).

 
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