There are still sparkles of that around from politeness - actually a bit embarrassed to be offered a seat myself at one point.

So what should the bus hierarchy be?  Paying adults get the seats first, half fare children are next in line, and if any are left over they're for the seniors who have been paid for through the ENCTS scheme?

 
When I were a lad, in 1960s Newcastle, the buses had signs advising that anyone travelling on a half fare must give up their seat if an adult was standing…

Don’t times change…

 

In that case may I suggest you never travel with CrossCountry

Slightly more seriously, though I do see your point; a) the fault is that of the train operator/DfT not providing enough seats, not of the family travelling within the rules; and b) unfortunately, in an age of advance tickets, amount paid now bears basically no relation to service received.

 
You have this the wrong way round – unless you're using "own" in the modern business sense of "acknowledge responsibility for". Children own their parents, just as cats are in fact the parents of their alleged owners.

 
Unless a reservation has been made, no passenger has an entitlement to a seat. Your fare, or authority to travel in the case of no fare, is for transport from A to B, nothing else. The amount paid does not increase one's right to a seat.

I personally prefer to see toddlers sat down with something to occupy them. Far better than on the loose. When I used to take my nephew on trips he was happiest sitting in a seat next to his uncle. I kept him engaged by telling him things about the railways. Under 5s have an authority to travel. First come, first served.

Someone less able should of course be offered the seat. That's common decency and a teaching point for children. But to an able bodied person just because they may have paid more for their journey? No.

 
I would be displeased if after paying the full fare, I was expected to stand in order that children without any tickets could take the seats.

Presumably the owners of the children will be entitled to priority boarding, so as to decrease the chances of ordinary ticket holders getting a seat.

Glad I use trains less these days.

 
On this day ... 2nd February - 2012 to 2022

10 years ago - conditions of carriage:


Now - conditions of travel:

 
It's no wonder I can never find a chimneysweep these days, the little so and sos are all gallivanting around on trains! 

 
It's astonishing what people will put up with ...  I kept a watchful eye on behaviours on Sunday evening when I joined a King's Cross to Cambridge service at King's Cross - shorter than usual and rammed by the time it left;  a very limited service indeed as all trains north were using the Hertford Loop.

Small child on seat ... precocious with her mum ... and she got chatting with people who were standing near her.   "I'm four - but 5 very soon" she announced for all to hear, but no-one suggested to mum that child should be on her lap, or standing, or offering her seat to someone more in need of it.

Woman seated in a bay of 4 with a small table, coats and luggage on all four seats, long before the train was due to leave. She was informing all comers  who enquired or who were about to sit down that the seats were 'reserved' and indeed - long after people were standing, and a couple of minutes before the train left, the rest of her party turned up.

I was in a window seat, one of an airline pair. Travelling companion sat inside from me, and rather than spill towards the corridor she spilled towards me.   Now Lisa and I will spill towards each other and we accept it, but ...  ... and she must have been very tired as she kept falling asleep and sagging onto me ... really left it pretty hard for me to do anything / type etc.  Which is why I was so much able to watch mother-and-four-year old which is where I started this post!

 
What i've recently been subjected to a couple of times on the SWT line between SAL and WAT is passengers asking me to turn my music on my MP3 down... Which I would be happy to do so... IF there was music playing in the poxy first place!!!

I quite often walk around with my headphones in, but there is no music playing simply to quieten loud noises down and it has been helping to reduce my random panic attacks (Was in A&E 4 times last month for them )... Sometimes my headphones aren't even connected to my iPhone. The look on the other pax face when shown the Jack for the cable has been priceless

Sometimes if i'm feeling a little bit creative and asked to turn my sound down. I have been known to play mind games and say things like: "You need to see a Psychiatrist if you can hear music... As these headphones aren't even plugged in... *Shows Jack for Headphones*".......................

Sorry. 99.9996% of the time I am a nice and polite person. However I don't like moronic idiots that think just because they're sat in First Class they own the carriage... Err No!

 

Ha ha I didn't notice how that read.. And I usually would have...

 
Presumably though given the title of this thread, we are all agreed it's OK people putting up to 4 children on a single seat, right?

 

One opposite me at the moment - not actually the rush hour, but the very well loaded 22:15 Paddington to Bristol.   Not that I'm objecting - I can stretch my legs out under the table (for which I reserved a seat last month!)

 
If my wife is travelling with my baby - we always buy a  ticket for him with F&F railcard. Always a saving.

 

I always amazed at the number of people who put bags on the seat during the height of rush hour, either ignorant or stupid to think that no-one wants the seat and then they looked annoyed that you've asked them to free up the seat.

I always pick the seat with a bag on it, never an empty seat - just too annoy the pax

 
Railway Byelaw 6 (Unacceptable behaviour) should cover it.


Penalty for such a breach of the byelaws is a fine not exceeding ^1000. Persons can also be removed from the railways for byelaw offences.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

I know I had an arguments on snails wales with a guard who wouldnt get a passenger of a certain age to move all her shopping off the table so other people could use it!

 
Article 46, page 17,  You must not place luggage or other articles on seats
required for passengers

So no question about charging for it. It shouldn't happen. I seem to recall one poster getting into an argument with the train manager who refused to get a passenger of a certain age to remove their bags. Maybe they should show the TM a copy of the NCoC if it happens again.

 
Anything on charging for putting a bag on a seat? (I can't see anything - perhaps I am blind)

 

It's on page 22 of the NRCoC: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

 
On Saturdays and School Holidays, I regularly see little children occupying seats throughout the carriage on the Cardiff Valleys.     The pensioners are left standing together with the other adults.

 
Those who are travelling with small children should be aware that if you have a Family and Friends railcard you can purchase a child's fare for an under 5 voluntarily in order to get a discount on the accompanying adult's fare.

I have puchased a ticket for my 4 year old to take advantage of this.  It works out slightly cheaper overall and means that you end up with tickets for two seats rather than one. Especially useful when travelling with my 4 and 2 year old as it means you can legitimately get 3 people onto a double seat which is much more do-able than getting two children on your lap on a single seat. 

 

Yes

 

Does the free ticket for an  under five count if the Adult has a First-Class ticket?

 
I've seen this rule somewhere else as well,

 
I looked for this in NRCoC and couldn't find it a few months back, at the time I did find a page on NRE's website that said you could be charged (Adult ticket) if you put luggage on the seat (TM/Guards choice). Researching it now, I cannot find this item on NRE's website?!

 

Out of curiosity does it say anything about travellers paying for one seat and then filling another 3 with luggage?

 

It depends on how you do it, John ...

On the TransWilts line last summer, we had more passengers than seats, and they included a huge quantity of young travellers and quite a lot of people at the other end of life's spectrum too.   There were a couple of occasions where someone who clearly shouldn't be left standing was having trouble finding a seat, and a quick "would your children mind sharing" was all that it took.   Happy atmosphere - and a great day had by all.   

If people could see why, were asked nicely, and if the request was made by someone who wasn't looking to use the seat personally, it wasn't a problem.  But of course that's the friendly regional line across Wiltshire.  I note you've posted on London to Reading - perhaps that would be different?

 
EDIT - 10 years on ((here)) at the end of this thread I have posted an update
-- grahame

---

It's not been a problem for me but I found this while looking at what age do children start paying


I've seen kid a few children <5 sat in seats in the rush our (tends to happen more at school holidays)

But who'd have the guts to kick a kid out of his/her seat?