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Great Western Coffee Shop
Recent Public Posts - [guest]
Re: What is the difference between an island bus stop and a floating bus stop?
In "Buses and other ways to travel" [367405/30973/5]
Posted by bobm at 11:23, 26th October 2025
 
At some stops on the D1 in Bath, the on board announcements do advise alighting passengers to watch out for cyclists.

Many years ago I was stuck by a cyclist as I got off a bus on the way to school.   I think my mother was more annoyed about the paperwork she had to fill in to get my NHS glasses replaced.

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367404/30939/34]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 11:01, 26th October 2025
 
I'm sorry.

CfN.

Re: Swindon <-> Westbury service updates and amendments, ongoing discussion - 2025
In "TransWilts line" [367403/29726/18]
Posted by brooklea at 10:32, 26th October 2025
 
10:41 Westbury to Swindon due 11:23
10:41 Westbury to Swindon due 11:23 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.
Further Information

If you arrive at your destination 15 or more minutes late because your GWR train was delayed or cancelled, you can claim Delay Repay compensation. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR.com/DelayRepay
Last Updated:26/10/2025 10:12

11:32 Swindon to Weymouth due 13:45
11:32 Swindon to Weymouth due 13:45 will be started from Westbury.
It will no longer call at Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham and Trowbridge.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.
Further Information

If you arrive at your destination 15 or more minutes late because your GWR train was delayed or cancelled, you can claim Delay Repay compensation. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR.com/DelayRepay
Last Updated:26/10/2025 10:12

Not much notice of these changes.

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367402/30939/34]
Posted by TaplowGreen at 09:59, 26th October 2025
 
Waay off topic, but not worth starting a new topic.

"My bad" has rapidly crept into our usage (as do many other words and expressions).
Is this a lesser form of sorry perhaps.

Our children use it frequently.
We still use "sorry".

Too pedantic? 

As with so many horrors (not limited to linguistics), it originated in the USA and has travelled across the Atlantic.

So it's their bad.

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367401/30939/34]
Posted by GBM at 09:46, 26th October 2025
 
Waay off topic, but not worth starting a new topic.

"My bad" has rapidly crept into our usage (as do many other words and expressions).
Is this a lesser form of sorry perhaps.

Our children use it frequently.
We still use "sorry".

Too pedantic? 

Re: 25th October 2025 - Railbus returns to Cirencester
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367400/30957/47]
Posted by Mark A at 09:17, 26th October 2025
 
On that first link, autumn sunlight and a full minute's 'Engine idling' recording from the railbus at the platform at Cirencester Town. This might be 2025, but easy to imagine it clearing its throat to alert the passengers on board and then bus-rumbling its way into the long cutting that took the line away from the terminus, its signature sound distinctly audible to the solitary figure waiting at Chesterton Lane Halt.

Mark

https://recorder.google.com/e8304697-ffed-4483-a50f-3e78f2a8157b


http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/chesterton_lane_halt/index.shtml

Re: Thames Valley infrastructure problems causing disruption elsewhere - 2025
In "Across the West" [367399/29650/26]
Posted by TaplowGreen at 09:00, 26th October 2025
 
Delays to services between Reading and London Paddington

Due to damage to the overhead electric wires between Reading and London Paddington:

Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed. Disruption is expected until 12:00 26/10.

What is the difference between an island bus stop and a floating bus stop?
In "Buses and other ways to travel" [367398/30973/5]
Posted by grahame at 08:41, 26th October 2025
 
What is the difference between an island bus stop and a floating bus stop?

An island bus stop is a stop at which you board or leave your bus from a pedestrian area - a patch of pavement - set between or beyond a cycle lane and the main motor vehicle lane.  You can stand and wait on the island for your bus, and as you step off an arriving bus you are in pedestrian "territory". (@)

A floating bus stop is one which is across a cycle lane - as you board the bus, cyclists give way to you to cross their lane, and as you get of the bus, they'll give way to you. You get directly off and on the bus from the area that is shared with that other wheeled traffic, which is supposed to give way to you.

The bus services bill has - I understand from TravelWatch SouthWest - a late addition that bans floating bus stops.  Probably on safety grounds (though no reason needs be written into an act) as there have been incidents with people whizzing by on cycles and scooters and knocking into people just getting off the bus.

Here are some pictures - and it turns out there are not that many of "pure" floating bus stops - there is often a little island large enough to use to step on and off the bus, but too small to linger on for more than a few seconds - certainly not to wait in a crowd or in the rain.

Swindon's new bus boulevard - an island which includes all the facilities


London - another example of an island with shelter


Bath - an island perhaps, but one you can't realistically wait on - so is it really a floater?


Bath again  this is a floater for sure?


And here is a definite floating bus stop. Step off straight into the cycles who are not even asked to slow!


In Melksham - a basic bus stop on a shared use path. And this is the closest stop and main stop for the doctor's surgery.


There is concern that, whilst safety is paramount, banning floating bus stops will make it far harder and more expensive - and sometimes impractical or impossible to provide a bus stop at all.  And there is further concern as to the status of exisiting floating bus stops - whether they will need to be changed (and if so on what time scale) and whether bus stops may be lost in the process, or limuted funding diverted away from other improvements to fix somthing which - yes, is a concern - but perhaps should not be the priority that a law change makes it.

@ - "We" are not helped by the term "floating bus stop" being in quite common udage to define what are technically both floating and island bus stops. In fact, this post may raise some eyebrows as to my definition.

See also ...
https://road.cc/content/news/safety-fears-raised-over-bath-cycle-lane-floating-bus-stops-297941
https://www.route-one.net/news/shared-space-floating-bus-stops-design-in-england-to-be-paused/
https://cbwmagazine.com/calls-for-ban-on-floating-bus-stops-in-london/

Re: Coffee Shop page on Facebook
In "News, Help and Assistance" [367397/28054/29]
Posted by grahame at 07:37, 26th October 2025
Already liked by GBM
 
Seven years ... quietly there, the Coffee Shop's Facebook Page.   Time and technology has moved on a little; I still do the odd share to there, but now it provides an https link to a page that should be more (but not totally yet) responsive to screen size and with an image from my library.

Somewhat testing here to see if this works.  For regular Coffee Shop members, you'll see a picture I took while waiting in the "Station Pub" in a nearby town, watching my train tracking from the bar, and checking on bus pictures taken earlier in the day.  No coffee but rather a fruit cider - after all, it *was* the evening and I could relax and have an occasional sip or alcohol.


Who will be running special trains on Network Rail lines in 2026?
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367396/30972/47]
Posted by grahame at 07:03, 26th October 2025
 
An advert on my data feed had me looking and making use of the extra hour of the night. Some of these have published a program for the start of 2026, some not yet.  Who have I missed?  Who do you recommend?  [Disclaimer - I very rarely travel on or study these specials or even photograph them - main interest is general public rail and increasingly road transport]

https://www.statesmanrail.com/trips-tours/
https://www.belmond.com
https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/railtours
https://midlandpullman.com/trips-tours/
https://vintagetrains.co.uk/train-rides/
https://www.ukrailtours.com/shop/
https://www.railwaytouring.net

Re: 25th October 2025 - Railbus returns to Cirencester
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367395/30957/47]
Posted by grahame at 06:05, 26th October 2025
 
Visiting this today ...

... By mid-morning Cirencester became impressively clogged with private vehicles: and at mid-day its car parks gridlocked. While the origin point of most of the people in those cars will not have been Kemble, that itself is shaped to some extent by available transport - and Kemble's still the local gateway to the national rail system. ...

With the cards falling slightly differently, ....

Oh, and thinking again of that railbus & wondering if there's another location that would be very much a fit for exhibiting it... ah... yes, but possibly much goodwill needs to be in place and then of course a bit of paperwork to tackle.

Very thoughtful and interesting report - thank you.  Sadly, it has confirmed my decision not to make the trip today, and to leave your report as the record of a Coffee Shop member who has.

It would be lovely to see a Sunday bus service from Kemble ... Google (which is good for multimodal suggestions) is suggesting a 2 hour and 11 minute journey today, a 30 minute journey tomorrow, and 9 minute drive. Quicker today to walk (1 hour and 49 minute, just over 4 miles) or cycle (27 minutes) today. And walking, cycling and your private car, you can start NOW without a wait.

I can't even put the bike on the train ... for the train has turned into a bus this morning.   Read not "Rail Replacement Bus" - read "Alternative Public Transport" and I note that I cannot use my bus pass on the bus ...  they expect me to pay rail prices for what is (for what I need) the inferior bus service.

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367394/30939/34]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:05, 25th October 2025
Already liked by JayMac
 
Your bad what?

My own bad for not reading JayMac's very kind invitation message, offering me a lift in his car down to Taunton, before I eventually read it - after the event.

Thanks anyway, Finn. Biscuit for you.

Re: Thoughts, tangents, personal big data. May I bore you for my enjoyment?
In "Introductions and chat" [367393/30964/1]
Posted by Oxonhutch at 21:53, 25th October 2025
Already liked by johnneyw
 
Below was the first PC that I was exposed to way back in 1979 - the Commodore PET with its particular version of BASIC [courtesy of Wiki-Commons Cc-by-sa-2.0-fr].

Though I cut my programming teeth at a tender age on a TI-58 that I took to uni - that taught me program [sic] logic. When it came to the Commodore's BASIC, it was just a shift in language statements.

My favourite is the programmer that was sent out to the shops by his wife'

   "Get me a pint of milk, and if they have eggs, get me a dozen".

He arrives home with 12 pints of milk,

Wife: , "What the actual.. ? !!!"

"They had eggs."

Re: 25th October 2025 - Railbus returns to Cirencester
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367392/30957/47]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 21:46, 25th October 2025
 

Don't fancy that ... and as far as I can see, they don't even bother to run a bus to Kemble to / from Cirencester on a Sunday.  And it's a bit far to walk.


That is all far too true, grahame.

My (elderly) father lives in Cirencester.  If I needed to attend to him at any time, it would require a car journey.


Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367391/30939/34]
Posted by grahame at 21:26, 25th October 2025
 
May I also please add my own apologies for my non-attendance at the meeting?

No need - in fact totally logical for you with all the circumstance, and for some others too.

Re: Driving licences and tests - ongoing discussion
In "The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom" [367390/19893/51]
Posted by Oxonhutch at 21:23, 25th October 2025
Already liked by GBM
 
My grandad (* 1908) had the most amazing driving licence. Every conceivable category including (what was then) tracked, road roller and trolley vehicle - and he never sat a test in his life.

Apprenticed as a motor mechanic in the late 1920s, he was sent out to the Post Office with his 3/6 to get a driving licence, (radio and dog licences were also available at the same counter) and off he went. Grandfather [sic] Clauses assured the rest, and he drove thus to his dying day.  Not behind the wheel, I must add.

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367389/30939/34]
Posted by bobm at 21:20, 25th October 2025
 
Your bad what?

Re: Driving licences and tests - ongoing discussion
In "The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom" [367388/19893/51]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 21:07, 25th October 2025
 
Purely for the record (and I may have posted this personal information before, on the Coffee Shop forum), I have a squeaky clean driving licence for manual and automatic vehicles, which I've held since August 1986.

It has stood me in good stead, enabling me to drive various delivery vans in a previous employment, for example.

Personally, I'm not a particular fan of automatics - but that's the way things are going, apparently.

My advice to any young driver applying for their driving test is to just go for it - with the current waiting lists, anything is better than nothing, and you can hopefully upgrade it at some time in the future.

CfN.

Re: Steam trains to return at Severn Beach
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367387/29794/47]
Posted by johnneyw at 20:41, 25th October 2025
Already liked by Chris from Nailsea, GBM
 
I stumbled upon the Severn Beach Miniature Railway Facebook page today.  Quite a few recent posts, one of which went into some detail about the latest developments including their wait for planning permission, designing stations, rolling stock and an appeal for loan of excavation/fence posting equipment.  Seems that the Severn Beach steam dream is still alive.

Re: Driving licences and tests - ongoing discussion
In "The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom" [367386/19893/51]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 20:40, 25th October 2025
 
Another update, from the BBC:

What is driving the decision to learn in a manual or automatic car?



Caitlin Graham wanted to learn to drive in an automatic car as she hoped the test would be quicker to pass without having to get to grips with a gear box.

But the 22-year-old says she had little choice but to learn in a manual due to any available automatic instructors being more than 20 miles away.

Motorists have seen a quiet shift in how they drive in recent years - with one in three cars on UK roads now an automatic.

A quarter of driving tests in England, Scotland and Wales last year were taken in automatic cars.

The AA says the trend is being driven by the UK's ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars coming in 2030, as electric cars do not have manual gearboxes.

For new drivers, this presents a dilemma - whether to learn and take their test in an automatic or a manual car.

It is a decision that could affect the rest of their driving lives - pass your test in an automatic and you will forever be boxed into only driving automatics - or indeed electric vehicles. Pass in a manual, and you will have the freedom to pick and choose. But many young people say it is not a decision they are freely able to make. Some would-be automatic learners have complained about a lack of instructors and the higher cost of lessons.

Others feel the jeopardy of learning in a manual is just too high. With huge competition for driving test slots, and long waits to re-take for those who fail, some young drivers feel learning in an automatic is the only way out of the fail-rebook, fail-rebook doom loop.

When Caitlin moved back home to a "super rural" part of Cumbria after university she was eager to pass her driving test as quickly as possible. There is no public transport in her village and she wanted to get on with finding a job. But unable to get hold of an automatic instructor she went for manual and passed almost a year after her first lesson. She says it only took her sister, who learned to drive in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, five months to pass in an automatic.

But it is a common misconception that the automatic test is easier - the pass rate for the manual test is higher at 50.4% than automatic at 43.9%, according to Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) figures for the financial year ending 2025.

"People still need to make the right decisions at the right time - make the correct observations at the right time and drive at appropriate speeds," says Stewart Lochrie, chairman of the Approved Driving Instructors National Joint Council (ADIJC).


(BBC article continues)


Re: Thoughts, tangents, personal big data. May I bore you for my enjoyment?
In "Introductions and chat" [367385/30964/1]
Posted by grahame at 20:28, 25th October 2025
 
More philosophically, there are few things more sad and obsolete than code written for a long-dead computer system. All that time and effort spent crafting clever ways of doing something with that limited hardware, and a few years later you could buy a box to do the same thing for a few pounds.

But so many of those algorithms developed in user code are learning material for firmware which is learning material for code in hardware. I celebrate these building blocks onto which we can build magnificent applications and solve problems we could not solve without them.

I guess that's a 4014, in the photo with its trousers down!

We had a 4010 - too small to be very useful, a couple of 4014s and a 4016 with it's massive 25 inch screen in EC&M at Rolls-Royce in the eighties. I can just about conjure up the special smell of the 4361 Hard Copy Device in action, if I try really hard. In their latter years, we had the terminals souped up to run at 9600 baud.

Kids today: they don't know they're born...

Ah yes - my predecessor as the Tektronix sales rep for the West of England (Swindon to Penzance) sold you the 4010s.  I sold Rolls load of 4014-1 options 1, 30 and 34 when I moved from tech support into sales (with messages from many that technical people cannot sell!) .  Glad you found them far more productive than the smaller ones - none of which were MY sale to you 

The 4016 was quite a late addition to the Tek dumb screen range.  I recall when the very first one arrive at Heathrow and got dropped in its box off a forklift and I had to pop down to Heathrow to evaluate the damage as "the expert" on a device I have only seen up to that point on a brochure.

Learned a lot in my just-over-a-year in sales, the South West becoming the best in the country and the only one that made target.  British Aerospace, Westland Helicopters, Geothermal Energy Project a nd a number of other very interesting places with military links.  And of course Rolls!  My sales manager (RIP, Peter) supported me as I failed to make all the expected subsidiary targets like number of customers visited per day - I think I manage to do 42% of what the powers that be wanted.

P.S. Good on Brock for selling you the 4010s and perhaps the odd 4012 before the 4014 was released!

Re: TravelWatch SouthWest, 24th October 2025, Taunton - INVITE
In "Diary - what's happening when?" [367384/30939/34]
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 20:02, 25th October 2025
 
May I also please add my own apologies for my non-attendance at the meeting?

Three things intervened, for me: I overslept, having had a full-on day yesterday re-configuring our kitchen; the weather forecast was crap and it was already raining here; then I saw that the Bristol <-> Taunton trains were severely disrupted.

Sorry if I sound to be a bit of a wimp, but I just decided that it was all too much of a faff.

My own thanks to JayMac for his texted offer of including me in a lift in his car back down to Taunton - unfortunately, some time after I actually read his message. My bad.

Re: TravelWatch Report 24.10.2025 / Journey to Taunton
In "Across the West" [367383/30971/26]
Posted by JayMac at 19:45, 25th October 2025
 
2C67 the 0800 from Cardiff Central to Exeter St Davids, did terminate at Highbridge & Burnham, arriving there at 0942. It turned back to form 2Z10, the 0936 Highbridge & Burnham - Cardiff Central, actually departing at 0955.

GWR then restarted the service from Taunton at 1000 as 2Z67 running to 2C67s schedule to Exeter St Davids.

Re: Thoughts, tangents, personal big data. May I bore you for my enjoyment?
In "Introductions and chat" [367382/30964/1]
Posted by grahame at 19:13, 25th October 2025
 
Response code number 502 ( Official description - " Bad Gateway " )

Receptionist server could not reach worker server.  Occasional blip, I think - thought your referer is strange.  Anyway, I paste the URL and got to the page and not a 502.

Re: 25th October 2025 - Railbus returns to Cirencester
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367381/30957/47]
Posted by grahame at 19:06, 25th October 2025
 
However, in light of the railbus’ return to Cirencester, the Old Station Experience event at Cirencester Town Station in Sheep Street will also now be open for an extra day on Sunday, October 26."

Thank you - I have just negotiated an extra day out (for Sunday) and will see if I can work out Sunday busses.

The timetabled Sunday train from Melksham at 08:38 to Swindon gets there at 09:02 ... and the bus from Swindon at 09:15 gets to Cirencester at 10:15.  Looks good

except

The Melksham train is replaced by a bus tomorrow ... which dawdles into Swindon after the 09:15 bus  has left.   Nice one!    Next bus to Cirencester gets there at 12:15.   4 hours, home to Cirencester - yuk.   How about driving for once?

By mid-morning Cirencester became impressively clogged with private vehicles: and at mid-day its car parks gridlocked. While the origin point of most of the people in those cars will not have been Kemble, that itself is shaped to some extent by available transport - and Kemble's still the local gateway to the national rail system.

Don't fancy that ... and as far as I can see, they don'e even bother to run a bus to Kemble to / from Cirencester on a Sunday.  And it's a bit far to walk.

Aborting my plans, I think. 

Re: Thoughts, tangents, personal big data. May I bore you for my enjoyment?
In "Introductions and chat" [367380/30964/1]
Posted by eXPassenger at 18:18, 25th October 2025
 
In 1982 I obtained executive committee approval to buy the first 12 IBM PCs for a major accounting firm, we already has some Apple IIs.  When the XT came out there was a special program on the diagnostics diskette to park the hard disk head before moving the machine.
I had an early Compaq Portable in the boot of my car for a week to see if the disk really could survive general use.

I remember that the New York office received a call from IBM marketing.  They said that sales were far, far higher than expectations and they wanted to know what they were being used for.

Re: 25th October 2025 - Railbus returns to Cirencester
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367379/30957/47]
Posted by Mark A at 17:58, 25th October 2025
Already liked by Timmer, GBM
 
Visiting this today (full disclosure, in a vehicle, on a day when the M4 was closed between Tormarton and wherever, and took care to travel before things got completely silly).

The Cirencester station exhibition is a solid event with many volunteers on hand, tea, coffee, biscuits, pervasive access to the building site that is the interior of the station (and which housed an exhibition) and access also to the railbus - and at one point the organisers ran its engine, which sat there hunting in a conversational way.

It's certainly positive to finally see the building's interior as a work-in-progress.

By mid-morning Cirencester became impressively clogged with private vehicles: and at mid-day its car parks gridlocked. While the origin point of most of the people in those cars will not have been Kemble, that itself is shaped to some extent by available transport - and Kemble's still the local gateway to the national rail system.

With the cards falling slightly differently, there might now be a block of fast-charging equipment alongside at Kemble, and an appropriately scaled battery vehicle to shuttle back and forth to Cirencester, taking even less time for the trip than the 11 minutes booked to the 1950s railbus.

Not covered by the exhibition, a visit to one of the line's surviving masonry structures is a treat in terms of the quality of the work on display. Visiting the station building was a treat for different reasons - the bare bones of the interior often on display, the structure's brick core has gained various steel beams, and yet a sense in one upstairs room in particular of its significance in the year or so when the terminus at Cirencester was apparently very much a base for the team working on bringing the extension into existence, onward and through the Stroud Valley.

Oh, and thinking again of that railbus & wondering if there's another location that would be very much a fit for exhibiting it... ah... yes, but possibly much goodwill needs to be in place and then of course a bit of paperwork to tackle.

Mark


Re: HST to Fort William at Bath Spa 24/10/25
In "Heritage railways, Railtours, buses, canals, steamships and other public transport based attractions" [367378/30969/47]
Posted by bleeder4 at 16:57, 25th October 2025
Already liked by Timmer, GBM
 
It's a great experience. I always try and do it every year if I can, as well as the one to Inverness & Kyle. They're only going to Fort William twice next year, due to Royal Scotsman taking the path to Mallaig on Day 2. So I've booked on the one in March from Birmingham.

Looking at the return journey, which leaves Fort William at 9am, is quite an early start to have breakfast, check out of hotel and be at the station for a 9am departure.
Most passengers, as well as the train crew, stay at the Premier Inn as it's just a 5 minute walk across Morrison's car park to the station. So it's not actually too bad. One year I shared breakfast in the Premier Inn with the driver and guard, before they had to head off to the depot to get the train ready. Plus, Fort William station doesn't normally open until around 11 on Sundays, as the first train isn't until 11:41. So the station gets opened specifically for the charter passengers and then locked up again once we've left. Which is quite a fun experience.

Re: TravelWatch Report 24.10.2025 / Journey to Taunton
In "Across the West" [367377/30971/26]
Posted by ChrisB at 16:48, 25th October 2025
 
08:45 showing "cancelled", 08:56 to Exeter (and we know that Exeter is beyond Taunton) showing "on time".

The 08:56 - a slower train via Weston eventually ran, I understand, as far as Highbridge and Burnham; should have been indicated as "probably terminating short" on the board but there's a whole new topic there.

There might have been - in the end it ran all the way & was only 5 mins late

I am writing far more than planned here - posting in a minute but going to ask you reading this to add Saturday 7th March 2026 to your calendar for the next TWSW meeting - worth attending even if only half as good as yesterday, but yet early planning is already suggesting it will be twice as good!

All the Railway Bill contens to digest for a start....


Edit to correct typo
[/quote]

Re: Thoughts, tangents, personal big data. May I bore you for my enjoyment?
In "Introductions and chat" [367376/30964/1]
Posted by ChrisB at 16:32, 25th October 2025
 
Sorry - we cannot meet this request
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