Let's make it an overt one - I'd support it!

 

Thank you for this - that makes sense! I knew I wasn't dreaming

 

Metal springs obviously don't burn, from what I have read it seems to have been to do with funnel effect, basically a fire would grow in a draft along the void.  Filling with solid foam meant no void so was assumed safer.

Although what I looked at related to aircraft seats, what was subsequently realised was the foam has gaps, it doesn't totally fill the space (slots are left for usb and entertainment cables etc).  And of some trains there are power sockets.   So presumably whilst old risk of dropped cigarette has gone, there is a new risk of electrical fire.

Historically the idea of foam seem to be a bit of a disjointed policy that dates back to cigarettes being smoked, as the foam was often installed in vehicles fitted with cables that gave off toxic fumes from their insulation if there was a fire.  

It seems there is a realisation that fire rarely kills from burning, but toxic fumes incapacitate people and bodies get discovered unburnt, but dead from suffocation whilst unconscious.  There was a reference to a minor train fire in 1950s which although fire was put out some ladies had died in a compartment apparently smiling.  It was eventually discovered smouldering varnished panels had given off toxic cellulose fumes that had killed them.

 

A very interesting read - and thoughtful.  Something I have wondered about - "Who and how is the xxx promoted" where "xxx" is a thin or secondary service.   

Is the issues - buses or trains - a lack of ownership over something that's specified for social need by a public servant who doesn't have a primary business case motivation, added to which a very spread out market in which - if you like - anyone looking for more business finds that it's like panning for the very occasional gold nugget (a passenger) in a huge volume of base rock (people making other journeys)

I find myself musing that this may be where a network approach would help. Services that are designed to connect and reliably do so. Combined timetable information.  Fares that allow you to take the best route at the time you travel without the worst complexities of having to rebook and / or return by the same way you went out.  Combined tracking so that in the event of traffic delays / other disruption the alternatives are offered.

A favourite example - an evening out in Bristol from Melksham. 

Melksham Market Place - 18:05, 18:53 arrival at Temple Meads.  With a walk from my home to the bus stop in Melksham that's under an hour.  BUT - it's the daily x69 to Bradford-on-Avon, 5 minutes to change there which is a bit tight with the walk down station approach and the need to have a ticket before boarding (maybe buy ahead, but using BoA may be a late decision).  And my return journey may be via train with a change at Trowbridge, train with a change at Chippenham, or a train / bus combo with a change at Bath onto the 273 which is another of those supported services.

The extra passenger on the x69 may only be occasional from promotion of that service - but as part of the whole network setup, integrated, there will be many occasions it could be offered and quite a few actually used.    Back (last service 22:40 from BRI / chase at Bath onto the 23:20 bus, home midnight) combo makes for an excellent practical meeting in Bristol.

 

 


Copy in our member's archive / mirror at https://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/GMGN2696-Iss-1.pdf

 

Indeed - paid out £95, received back £62. Would still rather have had on time trains.

From the local news feed at Somerset Live


which leads me down a rabbit hole of discovery to https://inrix.com

 
By having an RSSB account.

A comfort score is Dimensional features + Pad & Back Rest thickness + Compression.  Maximum score 100

Dimensional features includes:
a) seat height (target 440 mm ±10 mm above the floor)
b) Seat depth (good practice value to be 435 mm ±10 mm)
c) Seat width and gap between armrests (highest attainable score  for 460mm - 503mm with or without armrests, but a without score is handicapped)
d) Backrest width (highest attainable score for >549mm)
e) Armrest height (highest attainable score for fully adjustable, second highest 230mm - 250mm if non adjustable)
f) Underside of headrest to seat [distance from the seat's sitting surface to the passenger's acromion] (highest attainable score for 660mm - 680mm)
g) Angle of seat (highest attainable score for -6° to -9°)
h) Angle between seat and back (highest attainable score for 100° - 105°)
i) Legroom (highest attainable score for >766mm) [legroom is measured from the back of the seat to the back of the seat in front]
j) Bay seating arrangement (higest attainable score for > 1531mm) [measured from back of seat to the back of the seat opposite]
k) Clearance under tablet (650 - 690mm)
l) Tablet depth (151 - 200mm)

With regards to the seat pad, some choice figures are:
"It is good practice for the minimum seat pad thickness to be 50 mm."
"The seat pad's target minimum compression is 40% of the overall seat pad thickness." at 500N
"The maximum allowable compression is 70% of the overall seat pad thickness." at 1000N
"The minimum target is 5% or less of deformation after 50,000 cycles."

 
Saturday February 22

 
Thinking about the subsidised secondary routes near me - both urban and rural...

There are a few dominant local operators - primarily First, but also some other major plays. Mix of commercial and subsidised routes, mostly moderately frequent, or at least regular through the day. Day/weekly tickets useful as they can be used on all routes as long as the same operator is used. People know these companies run several routes in teh area, and a look at the websites shows the routes available. A lot of flaws with the service provision, but  essentially there's a well-known service provision.

Then there are the 'fiddly little routes'. In some cases 1-2 hourly, in some cases a few each day. Several companies involved - fine for pass-holders, but not so useful for those on day tickets. In many cases, the route varies a bit with each journey. Some are designed to connect with 'main' routes, but others aren't.

In reality the 'urban circular' type routes are probably are only useful to pass-holders, because the able-bodied will walk to the nearest main road for more frequent services, but they would probably be more useful if they were set up better. There's one that goes past my house, but I couldn't tell you when it runs. There are no designated stops, and my road doesn't appear on the rudimentary maps. The only designated stop is one by a nearby pub, which is shown in the timetable and on maps/planners; even that one doesn't have a sign. Which is fine for rural and occasional routes (and indeed more the norm in deep rural areas) - probably cheaper than maintaining stops - but without even the odd waypoint added to maps/planners/timetables, only regular uses would know where to wait for it! The map doesn't even hint that it passes my house, and many locals wouldn't even have heard of the company if only really familiar with the big players! If someone living on my road were shopping and a bit tired and happened to be ready to leave town when the bus is due, they might pick it over a route to the nearest main route, but as there isn't integrated ticketing they wouldn't unless they were a pass-holder.

It strikes me that if several of these 'urban circular' type journeys were linked, maybe into a 'city circle' type service, they could run to a more regular timetable, rather than sporadically (often a few journeys in a row, then none for a bit, then the afternoon batch - perhaps partly because of shift/lunch patterns, and partly because of swapping between the routes). And if there were integrated ticketing - be it an area-wide franchising model or one company just running hte whole lot - they would be more useful to everyone.

It's great that a particular market segment is served by these buses, but when I've seen them they aren't full to the brim, and if someone put the time into reviewing them perhaps they could be that bit more commercially useful.

The rural 'fiddly extra' routes are generally better - more defined routes, run by the same operator as the main axes, and designed to connect therewith, and quite useful for tourism so there is some marketing, although it's inconsistent. There are however some oddities - one or two (not sure how much they've survioved post-Covid) that run on certain days only for shoppers etc, and one that I've seen advertised at stops - possibly run on a voluntary or 'community' basis of some sort. The only way I know about it is from seeing advertising sheets at stops in that area. The photos (not sure if token/clipart or actuially representative) show coaches - not sure if a coach co runs it, or if someone has basically hired the coach. It runs on certain days only, between main axes so that it's useful for popping to shops etc - and the advertising at the stops says it's for pass-holders only. I can understand why in a way - perhaps avoids some sort of additional admin hurdle - but it could be more commercially useful if they could carry fare-payers as well. Again, perhaps if this type of route were linked into some of the others it could run daily, carry all passenger types etc.

 
Anyone seen a copy of RSSB GMGN2696 ? - which presumably is a standard method for measuring "comfort". How does it do that?

 

Did you really think that? Or (as I once read somewhere) is it April 1st already ??

That Railway Gazette explains it:

So no need for spring steel to be more flammable, or have a greater combustion energy, than foam.

 

As seen at the rail innovation exhibition:

 
2M24 (see above) is running. 

 
I thought that the original reason for moving from springs to foam seating was the fire risk on seats with springs was a lot higher than the fire-retarded foam. These appear to be made with small pocket springs in these - what changed?

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/spring-has-sprung-for-gwr-passengers/68315.article

 

HS1/St Pancras has a programme to increase passenger capacity. Last year Active Thinking led a study for them into how much of an increase was possible, and what "modern approaches and technological solutions" could be used. Railway Gazette reported:

Then earlier this year a PQQ came out for an implementation study based on that. That closed last week, so while the contract notice is still on line the document defining the study has now disappeared.

The only bit of the BBC report I can see that might be called news is

This agreement with Getlink is another bit of the same overall programme, and must have been agreed some time ago even if only signed now - and even then it's only an agreement to have an agreement.

 

On RTT, it has acquired "VCN" status, so you need to select the "CAN" option to view cancelled services. The reason given is ZW - unknown cause.

Also bearing a VCN status and ZW code on RTT is 2M34, the 20:14 Swindon-Westbury. There's nothing on Journeycheck about this service, and it is currently (at 19:22) shown on TIGER as "on time". Watch this space! 

Incidentally, the 18:37 Westbury-Swindon was delayed at Trowbridge for about 25 minutes (due to a "broken down train"). It lost a further 5 minutes due to missing its slot on the single line through Melksham.

 
There are plans to expand the check-in at St Pancras I believe. Featured in the news 6-9 months ago?

 
How do these plans fit in with the UK government requirement for entry checking before boarding?  or is there a secret plan to join Schengen?

 
Seems GWR were making up for earlier cancellations.



I'm imagining what the Journey Check message would have said?

"Facilities on the 1518 Worcester Foregate to London Paddington due 1729. This train will be formed of 18 coaches instead of 9. We apologise for any inconvenience."

 
Strangely, it seems to have disappeared from Real Time Trains altogether.

 
From Wikipedia:

 

Which got me wondering who St Pancras was / is ...

 
With thanks for starting this topic, eightonedee, I've moved it to this board, rather than our 'entirely overseas' board.

I'll also quote some detail from that BBC article:

 

You'd have to factor in the costs of endless strikes too once the Unions got wind it was going to happen.

 
This topic has been moved to The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=29934.0

 

There are other hints at the tightness - such as the suspension of the Bristol - Oxford Saturday trial in the summer while an IET is going to Newquay.  As the new^(*) 175 units enter service, it will be very interesting^(*) to see whether / how much they are used to relieve the tension on the IET fleet, how much they are used to relieve the tension on other fleets such as the 158s, and how much they are used to displace the other very oldest trans on the fleet rather than adding any extra robustness into the fleet.