| Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 19:45, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Reports coming in about an incident involving an SWR and a GWR service in Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury. GWR reporting disruption until "the end of the day" due to the emergency services dealing with an incident.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 19:57, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Now saying disruption until the end of tomorrow (Monday).
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 19:59, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From Wiltshire Today
A critical incident has been declared after a train derailed in Salisbury.
Emergency services including an air ambulance, police helicopter and the Coastguard were called to the scene near Fisherton Tunnel at around 7. 20pm.
Wiltshire Today understands a passenger train – with passengers on board – struck an object inside the tunnel before leaving the track and partially overturning.
The driver is trapped in the cab, with 999 crews trying to access the casualty. Their injuries are currently unknown.
It is not yet known if any passengers or other train staff have been hurt.
Emergency services including an air ambulance, police helicopter and the Coastguard were called to the scene near Fisherton Tunnel at around 7. 20pm.
Wiltshire Today understands a passenger train – with passengers on board – struck an object inside the tunnel before leaving the track and partially overturning.
The driver is trapped in the cab, with 999 crews trying to access the casualty. Their injuries are currently unknown.
It is not yet known if any passengers or other train staff have been hurt.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ellendune at 20:04, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From Wiltshire Police on Twitter
We are currently at the scene of a train crash involving two trains between Andover and Salisbury.
We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.
Will update as soon as we have more information.
We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.
Will update as soon as we have more information.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ellendune at 20:35, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 20:37, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
GWR just tweeted that the two trains involved were the 1708 Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol & the 1720 SWR service WAT to Honiton.
One news source I saw said that the GWR service has partially derailed with the driver trapped
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 20:42, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From the BBC
A number of passengers have been injured in a crash between two trains near Salisbury.
The collision happened near London Road with police, the fire service, paramedics and British Transport Police at the scene.
About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.
Dorset and Wiltshire Fire and Rescue declared the crash a "major incident" and 50 firefighters are in attendance.
Other train services in the area, close to Fisherton Tunnel in the city, have been halted.
BBC reporter James Ingham said none of the passengers were believed to have been seriously injured. He added it was believed one train was on its side.
Network Rail said in a statement: "Emergency services are responding to an incident at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury Station, involving the 1708 GWR service between Portsmouth Harbour and Bristol Temple Meads and the 1720 SWR services from London Waterloo to Honiton.
"The line is closed as they carry out their work, and we appreciate our customers' patience as we are doing all we can to help as they respond to the incident."
The collision happened near London Road with police, the fire service, paramedics and British Transport Police at the scene.
About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.
Dorset and Wiltshire Fire and Rescue declared the crash a "major incident" and 50 firefighters are in attendance.
Other train services in the area, close to Fisherton Tunnel in the city, have been halted.
BBC reporter James Ingham said none of the passengers were believed to have been seriously injured. He added it was believed one train was on its side.
Network Rail said in a statement: "Emergency services are responding to an incident at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury Station, involving the 1708 GWR service between Portsmouth Harbour and Bristol Temple Meads and the 1720 SWR services from London Waterloo to Honiton.
"The line is closed as they carry out their work, and we appreciate our customers' patience as we are doing all we can to help as they respond to the incident."
Story continues in link above.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 20:50, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From Wiltshire Police on Twitter
“Close to Grately?”  Some sort of error with initial reports I can only assume. The Twitter link no longer works anyway.We are currently at the scene of a train crash involving two trains between Andover and Salisbury.
We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.
Will update as soon as we have more information.
We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.
Will update as soon as we have more information.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by anthony215 at 21:34, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There are some photos posted around.i think we are very lucky we are not talking about fatalities in this incident especially when you see the stage of one of the SWR units. 158763 going to be put of action for a while too.
I'm not going to post the photos as I don't think.its respectful
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by jamestheredengine at 21:34, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Now saying disruption until the end of tomorrow (Monday).
And still no "Passengers between Southampton/Portsmouth and Cardiff/Bristol with tickets routed via Salisbury should travel via Reading".| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Celestial at 21:50, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
158763 going to be put of action for a while too.
I'm not going to post the photos as I don't think.its respectful
I'm not going to post the photos as I don't think.its respectful
I don't think it's particularly relevant to talk about how long one of the units is going to be out of action in an incident that had the potential to be life changing for those involved (although at this moment it thankfully appears as though passenger injuries may be minor - not yet clear on the driver who needed to be cut free, and my thoughts are with him at this time).
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 22:06, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From the BBC
A major incident has been declared after two trains collided in Salisbury, leaving several people injured.
The collision happened near London Road and involved a South Western Railway and a Great Western service.
About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.
The crash happened at 18:46 GMT when one train hit an object in a tunnel, and the second train then collided with it due to signalling problems.
The collision happened near London Road and involved a South Western Railway and a Great Western service.
About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.
The crash happened at 18:46 GMT when one train hit an object in a tunnel, and the second train then collided with it due to signalling problems.
I understand that the driver has now been cut free (was a while ago but it takes time for news to flow)
BBC reporter James Ingham said none of the passengers were believed to have been seriously injured.
A Network Rail spokesperson said: "At around 19:00 GMT this evening, the rear carriage of the 17:08 Great Western Railway service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads derailed after striking an object on its approach to Salisbury station.
"The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area.
"Subsequently, the 17:20 South Western Railway service from London Waterloo to Honiton then collided with the Bristol train.
"There are reports of injuries and the emergency services are on site along with railway first responders."
A Network Rail spokesperson said: "At around 19:00 GMT this evening, the rear carriage of the 17:08 Great Western Railway service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads derailed after striking an object on its approach to Salisbury station.
"The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area.
"Subsequently, the 17:20 South Western Railway service from London Waterloo to Honiton then collided with the Bristol train.
"There are reports of injuries and the emergency services are on site along with railway first responders."
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by broadgage at 22:36, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
What I find shocking is not the FIRST collision, between the first train and and an "obstruction". That sort of accident can never be entirely prevented.
A second train then collided with the first one. I would expect that the signaling system would prevent that. The signaling system would "know" the location of the first train and keep the following train a safe distance away. I appreciate that the initial collision reportedly put the signals "out of order" But signals should fail safe. If the relevant signal was out, that should still be treated as being a signal at danger.
Or was the second train moving on the other line ? That could explain the second collision if the first train was foul of the line.
It has been suggested in some reports that a landslip or similar caused the obstruction.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 22:49, 31st October 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The RAIB are on site and I suspect the signalling system will be one of the things they will be investigating as a priority.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 05:41, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Having seen various pictures from the scene it is remarkable that there weren't more serious injuries or deaths.
The incident has rather affected my plans for today. I had planned to visit the Isle of Wight to ride the 'new' Class 484 stock and see the station improvements.
Just debating with myself whether Templecombe - Exeter - Reading - Basingstoke - Portsmouth is a reasonable route as allowed by SWR's ticket easements today. There's no news yet on rail replacement bus services in the Salisbury area. Yeovil - Dorchester - Southampton - Portsmouth already has rail replacement for engineering works in the Brockenhurst area. Also my last experience of a rail replacement bus was Finn being denied travel.
EDIT. SWR Twitter just confirmed I can travel via Exeter and Reading. Long way round but avoids buses.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Electric train at 06:24, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The RAIB are on site and I suspect the signalling system will be one of the things they will be investigating as a priority. 
Not just the signalling, the GWR train driver eye witness evidence will be key also the train black box and Forward Facing CCTV (if fitted), the physical condition of the track, tunnel etc.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 07:16, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Like Broadgage, I am really concerned at the second collision ... being careful not to speculate too far.
Good to see everyone is out and alive - hope the injuries to the driver (in spite of him (?) being trapped) are not life changing - I am keeping an ear open for a medical update and will post when I see one.
The Waterloo to [Honiton/Exeter] hourly service does - of course follow the Portsmouth to Cardiff service through, as per yesterday evening, making an excellent connection from Southampton to the west, and utterly failing to connect for Waterloo and Clapham Junction to Trowbridge / Bath / Keynsham / Bristol passengers.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyK at 08:25, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Like Broadgage, I am really concerned at the second collision ... being careful not to speculate too far.
Good to see everyone is out and alive - hope the injuries to the driver (in spite of him (?) being trapped) are not life changing - I am keeping an ear open for a medical update and will post when I see one.
Good to see everyone is out and alive - hope the injuries to the driver (in spite of him (?) being trapped) are not life changing - I am keeping an ear open for a medical update and will post when I see one.
It does sound as though injuries were not serious, which is wonderful news if accurate. I assume most, if not all, passengers would have been seated, which would have helped. Regarding the driver, one can be trapped following an accident without being hurt, and I hope this was the case here.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Mark A at 08:35, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The two services on Real Time Trains. The second train not detected at Tunnel Junction. Both running late, the SWR service making up time, and both arrived at the junction with not many minutes between them. Thoughts with everyone affected.
Mark
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G57571/2021-10-31/detailed
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52648/2021-10-31/detailed
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 09:21, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Real Time Trains data only there for a week "after". Thanks for the links, Mark - here are the pertinent bits:


| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bobm at 09:25, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I assume most, if not all, passengers would have been seated, which would have helped.
I have seem some reports that there were people standing as they prepared to get off at Salisbury.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 09:49, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Looks like 1F27 passed though by the skin of its teeth!

Other notes (from BBC Wiltshire) ... 3 remain in hospital. Driver serious but comfortable. "About 100 people on the train(s)". Can't trust everything you hear - comment from Claire Mann referred to as "Managing director of Great Western Railway" ...
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 10:05, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Guard on my train from Templecombe to Exeter has told me that no units have been allowed out of Salisbury depot this morning. That has meant only a shuttle service can be run between Gillingham and Exeter using units that outstation overnight at Yeovil and Exeter.
One of those units is parked up at Yeovil Junction, low on fuel, having not been able to make it back to Salisbury last night. It may have to be fuelled by road tanker if it can't be taken back to Salisbury in the next day or two.
Question. Can SWR fuel their 159s at Exeter if need be?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 10:36, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From overnight:

| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 11:07, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There are now enough daylight pictures (e.g. on the BBC) to confirm some of what was "known" but confusing last night.
The eastbound GWR train (1F27 ) passed Salisbury Junction first (timed 18:41 - 5 minutes early). This is a sharp right turn, limited to 20 mph. For reasons still unclear, this train was held at Dean (some distance before the station) for over two hours before departing 151 late and being cancelled at Fratton "Reason TY [Mishap-Train Operating Company cause] ".
The westbound GWR train, subject to the same 20 mph speed limit round the sharp left turn, was timed at Salisbury Junction at 18:42, 19 late. It stopped with the last vehicle outside the tunnel, and still on the points. Its rear end was thus well to the left of the Down Main Line that 1L53 was arriving on. This last vehicle was reported to have derailed, but I think that might be a mistake. It was struck soon after so ended up derailed anyway, and it does seem unlikely that an obstruction would derail only the last vehicle - and it never entered the tunnel. We'll have to wait and see on that one.
The SWR train (1L53) had earlier been cancelled before departing "Reason JP [Failure to maintain vegetation within network boundaries in accordance with prevailing Network Rail standards]". It was reinstated and was last timed departing Andover at 18:30, 6 late. It should have passed Salisbury Tunnel Junction at 18:39, so with the delay would be expected at 18:45 (any time in RTT is interpolated). Its straighter run over the points allows a 50 mph speed limit, but it should have been slowed, delayed, and then stopped by the signals. The biggest question at the moment is why that did not happen.
We know 1L53 bit not stop, and struck the rear vehicle of 1F30 a glancing blow. It is not possible to tell from the resting positions where that stopped carriage was when struck, but in its current position the two trains would not have passed to strike corner to side. The impact would have been corner to corner, and much more violent as a result. Either way, the leading end of that GWR vehicle was did not pass the tunnel portal; it's not clear from the picture whether it lodged against it and could go no further. 1L53 was thrown off its track, and half overturned, and ran into the tunnel in that canted position along the Up Main and (at least in places) became wedged between 1F30 and the tunnel wall.

Two things went well in the accident, accounting the the relatively light injuries, and to only a small number of passengers and staff. One was that the body shells largely kept their shape and bounced off each other. The other was that no fire broke out. It could have been very much worse.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bradshaw at 13:27, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
If you lighten the image then there seems to be something between the two GWR carriages just at the tunnel portal.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyK at 13:27, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 13:40, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.
Now it is being reported that the SWR driver's injuries are more serious, and sadly will have long-term consequences.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 13:48, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I think in Stuving’s excellent summary the eastbound GWR (1F27) would have been stopped by an area emergency call. I’m therefore assuming that if they were still in Salisbury’s control area then it would not necessarily be a priority to get them going again.
But what happens to the signallers who are on shift in such circumstances, do they have to get relieved?
Paul
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Oxonhutch at 13:49, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
If you lighten the image then there seems to be something between the two GWR carriages just at the tunnel portal.
Looks like the impact zone to me, which would place both trains further back from the tunnel mouth at the point of collision.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyK at 14:07, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.
Now it is being reported that the SWR driver's injuries are more serious, and sadly will have long-term consequences.
Alas so, using that awful term "life changing".
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by IndustryInsider at 14:08, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
But what happens to the signallers who are on shift in such circumstances, do they have to get relieved?
As soon as practically possible, yes. Especially if there’s any reason to believe their actions may have caused or contributed to an incident.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 14:24, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I think in Stuving’s excellent summary the eastbound GWR (1F27) would have been stopped by an area emergency call.  I’m therefore assuming that if they were still in Salisbury’s control area then it would not necessarily be a priority to get them going again.  
Paul
Paul
Yes, that is all in the Salisbury signalling area. That explanation would explain the initial stop, and I wonder if there was a concern even that early to get information from the driver about anything on the track, or any other source of evidence such the FFTV.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 14:27, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Apparently the Telegraph (paywalled) are now reporting that there was only one incident:
 Initial reports suggested the first train had hit an object, causing it to derail, and that the second train ploughed into the displaced, stranded service. 
But in an update on Monday afternoon, British Transport Police (BTP) confirmed this was not the case, and that both trains were travelling in the same direction when one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel.
But in an update on Monday afternoon, British Transport Police (BTP) confirmed this was not the case, and that both trains were travelling in the same direction when one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel.
BTP on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/BTP/status/1455173517847171074?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
 There is no evidence to suggest the train struck an object or that there was any significant delay between the collision and the derailment.
Also supported by a recent BTP statement:
https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/derailment-at-fisherton-tunnel-salisbury---statement/
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Mark A at 14:43, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Eyewitness account from a passenger travelling from Brighton to Southampton and then onto the GWR service where he was to alight at Salisbury - and in the event ended up being walked through the tunnel and along the tracks into Salisbury Station which is quite a trek in itself.
It may be significant that he doesn't mention two events.
https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/19685161.salisbury-train-crash-passengers-experience/
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Andy at 15:15, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thoughts with all rail staff, emergency staff and passengers who were victims of or witness to the accident, especially the driver, whose injuries seem to be more serious than first reported. Thank goodness no lives were lost.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by broadgage at 15:20, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.
In that case, I retract my earlier remarks that imply that the signalling system should have prevented the SECOND collision.
If two trains are proceeding in the SAME direction, on the same line, then even if the first train suffers an accident, the second train should be held a safe distance away by the signalling system.
If however two trains are proceeding in OPPOSITE directions, and the first one is derailed, then it can be hard to prevent a second accident. If the first train, or any substantial parts thereof is foul of the OTHER line, then no automatic system can reliably prevent the second train colliding with the the first one.
Under such circumstances, reliance must be placed on human actions such as;
Press the emergency button on the cab radio, so doing sends a "stop danger" message to other trains in the area.
Apply track circuit operating clips to other line, this puts signals back to danger.
A member of train crew to walk back along the track with a red flag or lamp, and apply detonators.
Make an emergency phone call, preferably from a signal post telephone. Cellphone as a second choice.
Such actions might not be in time to avoid a second accident.
IMPORTANT EDIT. Both trains were travelling in the sane direction. See following post for details.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 15:32, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.
The two trains were both travelling toward Salisbury and collided at Salisbury Tunnel Junction. The GWR service was travelling from Portsmouth to Cardiff and the SWR service from Waterloo to Honiton.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 16:09, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.
In that case, I retract my earlier remarks that imply that the signalling system should have prevented the SECOND collision.
[…]
There are now more recent reports this afternoon, eg from BTP that I quoted, that there was no second event at all…In that case, I retract my earlier remarks that imply that the signalling system should have prevented the SECOND collision.
[…]
Paul
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Gordon the Blue Engine at 16:43, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
One conclusion from the published pictures is that both trains were moving when they came together and collided. Note that the trailing cab of the GWR train shows no sign of being hit by the leading cab of the SWR train.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 16:50, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
That BTP press release of 13:40 today starts off with:
British Transport Police detectives have begun an investigation into a train collision in Salisbury, Wiltshire last night (31 October).  
At around 6.45pm, a Great Western Railway service from Southampton to Cardiff collided with a South Western Railway service from London to Honiton as they both entered the Fisherton Tunnel in Salisbury.
Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel. The front few carriages remained upright while the back tipped on their side...
At around 6.45pm, a Great Western Railway service from Southampton to Cardiff collided with a South Western Railway service from London to Honiton as they both entered the Fisherton Tunnel in Salisbury.
Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel. The front few carriages remained upright while the back tipped on their side...
That would fit in with the idea that both trains were moving, though that in itself raises problems over the recorded timings. But I'm still not taking it as a definitive statement, given some bits that are are obviously wrong.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 17:43, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There are informed suggestions that the GWR train split in the tunnel - so the picture showing two trains from the front roughly side by side is of the second of two 2-car GWR 158s. When that happened isn't clear.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 17:54, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
‘Travelling in the same direction’ simply means they were going the same way (towards Salisbury station), not that they were actually both moving.
We’ll have to await the initial RAIB report to know for sure. I suspect also that the BTP will be ‘asked’ to shut up about what they think happened & await the report too. They were wrong with an initial report about the derailment prior to the crash….
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 18:14, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From GWR, SWR and Network Rail, by email, headed "Incident at Fisherton Tunnel"
Dear Graham
 
You will be aware that yesterday evening (Sunday 31 October) there was an incident at Fisherton Tunnel, near Salisbury. While we’re thankful the majority of customers and colleagues have now been able to go home safely, unfortunately it has become clear that a driver sustained a more serious injury and continues to be treated in hospital. We know everyone in the railway family is wishing him a full and swift recovery.
 
This was an upsetting experience for our customers. Their patience and understanding was appreciated by everyone on site and our thoughts remain with them.
 
The British Transport Police have been clear their investigations are in the very early stages, and it is likely the trains involved will need to remain on site for some time. The line will stay closed for at least a few days.
 
Currently, South Western Railway is unable to run to the West of Salisbury and there is a limited bus replacement service in operation. Our advice to those customers is to avoid all but essential travel on those routes.
 
Great Western Railway is running a bus service between Salisbury and Romsey, with trains operating shuttle services between Cardiff, Bristol and Salisbury, and Romsey to Portsmouth on either side of the line closure.
 
We will continue to update you and we are grateful for the support already shown by stakeholders. We would also like to say thank you to our customers, colleagues and the emergency services for their support and dedication throughout this incident.
 
Best wishes
 
Mark Hopwood (Managing Director, Great Western Railway)
Claire Mann (Managing Director, South Western Railway)
Mark Killick (Wessex Route Director, Network Rail)
You will be aware that yesterday evening (Sunday 31 October) there was an incident at Fisherton Tunnel, near Salisbury. While we’re thankful the majority of customers and colleagues have now been able to go home safely, unfortunately it has become clear that a driver sustained a more serious injury and continues to be treated in hospital. We know everyone in the railway family is wishing him a full and swift recovery.
This was an upsetting experience for our customers. Their patience and understanding was appreciated by everyone on site and our thoughts remain with them.
The British Transport Police have been clear their investigations are in the very early stages, and it is likely the trains involved will need to remain on site for some time. The line will stay closed for at least a few days.
Currently, South Western Railway is unable to run to the West of Salisbury and there is a limited bus replacement service in operation. Our advice to those customers is to avoid all but essential travel on those routes.
Great Western Railway is running a bus service between Salisbury and Romsey, with trains operating shuttle services between Cardiff, Bristol and Salisbury, and Romsey to Portsmouth on either side of the line closure.
We will continue to update you and we are grateful for the support already shown by stakeholders. We would also like to say thank you to our customers, colleagues and the emergency services for their support and dedication throughout this incident.
Best wishes
Mark Hopwood (Managing Director, Great Western Railway)
Claire Mann (Managing Director, South Western Railway)
Mark Killick (Wessex Route Director, Network Rail)
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 18:21, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thoughts with all rail staff, emergency staff and passengers who were victims of or witness to the accident, especially the driver, whose injuries seem to be more serious than first reported. Thank goodness no lives were lost. 
They have been stated as "life changing" but just stated as "life threatening" in a BBC report I have just heard. Let us just hope that's a slip of the tongue; a difficult day to get wording accurate in a sea of developing and amending news.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by DaveHarries at 18:37, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
POST EDIT, 02-Nov-2021: In view of the RAIB's information today that they are considering wheelslide as to why the SWR train collided with the GWR train I have removed what remained of the post I had put here.
Dave
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by PhilWakely at 18:43, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
My thoughts on this are as follows:
<snip>
<snip>
Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 18:51, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There are informed suggestions that the GWR train split in the tunnel - so the picture showing two trains from the front roughly side by side is of the second of two 2-car GWR 158s. When that happened isn't clear. 
Let’s say this is correct, and the front portion continued past the signal outside the tunnel. Would that then release the previous signal, allowing 1L53 past the junction signal at amber? Just one hypothetical based in what’s been reported here so far. Yes, it raises other questions of course, but possible. There are zero photos of the front unit of 1L30, which raises my suspicions that more has still to be discovered. A lot more possibly
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by DaveHarries at 19:08, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
My thoughts on this are as follows:
<snip>
<snip>
Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by PhilWakely at 19:13, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
My thoughts on this are as follows:
<snip>
<snip>
Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.
You said enough - and indeed stated that ' I won't post my conclusions here (although some may guess them)'
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by broadgage at 19:29, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
In my view, speculation is fine provided that it is firstly reasonably well informed, and secondly is based on previously known facts about infrastructure, rules and procedures, and rolling stock, and/or based on reliable reports already made public by reputable media, such as published photographs of the aftermath, or published statements and press releases.
Speculation blaming an individual is in poor taste and might in extreme cases even be illegal.
But more general speculation is arguably at least partly what forums are for. The post by DaveHarries is in my view informed speculation, incorporating factual data about infrastructure in the area, and is in my view both interesting and informative.
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 19:34, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
It may be worth further discussion….I’m also happy with discussion on infrastructure while not discussing persons and/or staff (so no personal stuff either persons or positions with the rail industry) which both my previous post & Dave’s was
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by IndustryInsider at 19:34, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There will be no public speculation from me. I await the RAIB’s findings with interest.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 19:38, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.
It is a very difficult call indeed for me, for the reasons you have stated. I have stated in my "snip" comment that I am seeking the views of the wider moderator team. Its removal is precautionary at present; it can easily enough be put back, if appropriate, but if I left out in place while we decide, those extreme cases of legality you refer to could cause permanent damage.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by DaveHarries at 20:04, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I await the RAIB’s findings with interest.
As will I. My earlier post is hidden but I will keep my conclusions to myself. Apologies if I said too much: I will, of course, read the RAIB report also with interest and will be happy if I am proved wrong on what I am thinking.Dave
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Western Pathfinder at 20:08, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thankyou Dave.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 20:09, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
In my view, speculation is fine provided that it is firstly reasonably well informed, and secondly is based on previously known facts about infrastructure, rules and procedures, and rolling stock, and/or based on reliable reports already made public by reputable media, such as published photographs of the aftermath, or published statements and press releases.
Speculation blaming an individual is in poor taste and might in extreme cases even be illegal.
But more general speculation is arguably at least partly what forums are for. The post by DaveHarries is in my view informed speculation, incorporating factual data about infrastructure in the area, and is in my view both interesting and informative.
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.
Speculation blaming an individual is in poor taste and might in extreme cases even be illegal.
But more general speculation is arguably at least partly what forums are for. The post by DaveHarries is in my view informed speculation, incorporating factual data about infrastructure in the area, and is in my view both interesting and informative.
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.
I fully agree with your post.
The likes of the RAIB carry out their own thorough investigations, highly professional people. Not the kind who give up, retire to the pub trawling through public forums to copy and paste posts to compile a report.
Point the finger of blame at someone or naming individuals crosses the line but speculation based on some knowledge is in my opinion, perfectly acceptable, a lot of us have discussed and speculated all day in messrooms today.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 20:17, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by DaveHarries at 20:40, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thankyou Dave.
No worries although I remain hopeful that the hiding of my post is only temporary. If I had gone the whole hog and given my conclusions in the post (which I won't do on this forum or anywhere else public) then I would fully understand the hiding and / or removal of the post permanently. I realise that it is not my say-so though.Dave
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 20:47, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error. 
True, as with any incident there’s always going to be the possibility that human error plays a part to a varying degree, but where human error occurs a safety system like TPWS or ATP should prevent incidents of this nature which is why this one has caused a good deal of debate.
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 21:02, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error. 
Indeed, and we live in a society which very rarely says "it was an accident - just one of those things that happens from time to time". We ask which individuals, and which systems, could have done things or been different and we then ask "could they have know better" or "should the systems have been better". And as such, we tend to point to human error or misjudgement; doing so without full information tends, perhaps, to create something of a kangaroo court.
Looking back even at old reports I can turn the pages of virtually any of them and read "x" should have done "y". Once the verdict is in, I can quote that. Prior to than verdict / analysis, I really shouldn't even draw a parallel and indeed I'm going to stress here that the reports in this photo are merely the more southern ones from a pile I have.

I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident. 
Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 21:19, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident. 
Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.
One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 21:48, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident. 
Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.
One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.
I think wilful rule breaking is extremely rare these days compared to back in the 70’s. Back then the work was tough but it was a job for life, you could get away with incidents. Today, there’s been a reversal. Actual driving is far easier but it’s now significantly easier to lose your job. For a driver, I’d say it’s no longer a job for life. Wilful rule breaking today will get you caught, you’ve got your CCTV cameras, OTDR etc.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyN at 22:03, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?
I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by MVR S&T at 22:48, 1st November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?
I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.
I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.
looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 06:43, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.
It is a very difficult call indeed for me, for the reasons you have stated. I have stated in my "snip" comment that I am seeking the views of the wider moderator team. Its removal is precautionary at present; it can easily enough be put back, if appropriate, but if I left out in place while we decide, those extreme cases of legality you refer to could cause permanent damage.
Lots of thought given to this. I have outlined my concern about publishing speculation on the forum while we await (and it is frustrating!) the facts and findings and it's been discussed amongst the moderator team. Not only are we looking at legal issues, but also at hurt potentially caused to those involved and the possibility of rumours and shares of what turns out to be wrong ... indeed we have witnessed, in the last 24 hours, initial reports of the incident starting with a derailment caused by an obstruction being stated "no such evidence" by the BTP.
All of our members who have posted a few times have access to our "Frequent Posters" board. It allows established members somewhat more freedom, and we require that members with access to that board do not share its material any wider. The issues that caused us to snip the public post above would be mitigated were such a post to be made out of the public (guest) view, and mitigated further by "Frequent Poster" guidance. That is far from saying "anything goes" - it does not - but I would remind members of the availability of the member's board and invite appropriate (re)posts of some material there. I hope this provides you with a way forward.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by brooklea at 07:11, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?
I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.
I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.
looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?
I can’t see that being the case, as trains from Cardiff to Salisbury and vv were running all day Monday, and Salisbury panel would have to be controlling those train movements between Beechgrove (just outside Warminster) and Salisbury.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Alan Pettitt at 07:40, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Trains running today Exeter to Salisbury.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 13:57, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
BBC South Today at lunchtime was quite categorical - RAIB are investigating why the SWR train passed a red signal, and looking at the condition of the rails.
The report did try to distinguish between BTP, controlling the site, and RIAIB doing the investigation work. I have an idea that it suits RAIB fine to work behind the police, and in particular they are happy never to meet a journalist. They accept that the police will want to know if anything points towards a criminal investigation, and intervene if they are concerned about conserving evidence according to the rules.
More upbeatly, the SWR driver is now reported as less badly injured than was feared.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by bradshaw at 16:25, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
RAIB announced preliminary result
Seen here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1455568926469808131?s=21
Website source
https://dft-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/raib-statement-salisbury-rail-accident
Edited to give DfT website source
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 16:33, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
In thread post as an alternative to earlier attachment.
RAIB Statement: Salisbury rail accident
2nd November 2021
The following statement was given this afternoon by Andrew Hall, Deputy Chief Inspector, Rail Accident Investigation Branch.
"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and BTP. Our investigation is progressing well.
"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV imagery is ongoing.
"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.
"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.
"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.
"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.
"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.
"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."
"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and BTP. Our investigation is progressing well.
"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV imagery is ongoing.
"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.
"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.
"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.
"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.
"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.
"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TaplowGreen at 17:23, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Leaves on the line then?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by hoover50 at 17:29, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Leaves on the line then?
Or perhaps an insufficient number of RHTT workings over that stretch of line in the days leading up to the collision?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 17:34, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
As I suspected. Unfortunately this highlights an issue with the TPWS system.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by IndustryInsider at 17:41, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Yes, looks like the root cause is wheel slide then. Probably what most of us within the industry suspected.
Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 17:44, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Really got to feel for the driver. Must have been terrifying for him.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 17:49, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Yes, looks like the root cause is wheel slide then.  Probably what most of us within the industry suspected.
Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).
Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).
I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 18:46, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From the photos/pics I can find, the signal protecting the junction is well back before the tunnel & seems to be the other side of the A30(?) overbridge. A hecknof a long way to slide? Am I right? I understand that the speed limit from the BSK direction is 50mph, and the damage I estimate must have been going almost as quickly on impact to carry the train that far into the tunnel
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 19:00, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Falling gradient too, I believe.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by IndustryInsider at 19:03, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I wouldn’t describe that as a heck of a long slide at all, and I certainly wouldn’t want to make even the vaguest of guesses as to what speed the impact was based on a couple of photos!
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 19:44, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I wouldn’t describe that as a heck of a long slide at all, and I certainly wouldn’t want to make even the vaguest of guesses as to what speed the impact was based on a couple of photos!
I managed just under 2 miles several years ago with all wheels locked. Luckily plain track with no restrictive aspects, applied the brakes at about 60mph, a mile or so later, I hit the platform ramp doing 55mph.
What distance from a signal protecting a junction to the junction is safe, that would prevent incidents like this?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by DaveHarries at 20:15, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
From the photos/pics I can find, the signal protecting the junction is well back before the tunnel & seems to be the other side of the A30(?) overbridge. [...] Am I right?
You are indeed. A look at the street-level view from the A30 overbridge on Google Earth shows the protecting signal - SY31 - in one direction while rotating the image 180 degrees allows a small view of the location where the derailment and collision occurred.Dave
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Mark A at 21:35, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thinking of Google Streetview, the condition of the cutting sides over the last ten years ago contrasts sharply with their appearance in, ok, 1970, which I know is a different era, but they were clear of scrub and trees (photo from Flickr). The allotments to the right are still there, but even they are now losing out as they too are shaded by the full grown trees at the top of the cutting.
The google streetview is from June 2015 and provides the human interest of a couple of people in orange hi-viz gazing at the tunnel approach.
Given the two converging lines, junction and tunnel, there's something to be said for returning the cutting sides to grass. (And there's a lot to be said for properly resourcing the Cardiff - Portsmouth, the Waterloo - Exeter and the Waterloo Bristol traffic flows so that they're not miserably capacity-constrained for decades on end and can contribute properly to underwriting the necessary work to the infrastructure. As Graham's said, simply ensuring useable connections between Waterloo-Salisbury and Salisbury-Bristol might quickly find passenger numbers rising to 240,000 a year. The reason it's not done is presumably that it would overwhelm GWRs provision between Salisbury and Bristol...)
https://goo.gl/maps/25yDmdeDFB5fcz8s5
https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873405094
Mark
Edit: replaced first link with shortened version - Red Squirrel
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by PhilWakely at 21:47, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Leaves on the line then?
Or perhaps an insufficient number of RHTT workings over that stretch of line in the days leading up to the collision?
The scheduled RHTT run for earlier in the day on Sunday was cancelled 'at the request of the train operator' and doesn't appear to have run in the days beforehand either. It would have passed through Tunnel Junction four times.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyK at 21:55, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I managed just under 2 miles several years ago with all wheels locked. Luckily plain track with no restrictive aspects, applied the brakes at about 60mph, a mile or so later, I hit the platform ramp doing 55mph.
Ouch!
A member of the in-law contingent managed most of a mile at the controls of a Blackpool tram some years back, including the on-road bit by the Metropole hotel, coming to rest by the Tower. All he could do was sound the horn. He didn't hit anything or anybody. It was ice, not leaves, but shows the effect of lack of adhesion. The big question was why it had never happened before in the previous century, given that the conditions on the day were far from unheard of.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TaplowGreen at 22:06, 2nd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Thinking of Google Streetview, the condition of the cutting sides over the last ten years ago contrasts sharply with their appearance in, ok, 1970, which I know is a different era, but they were clear of scrub and trees (photo from Flickr). The allotments to the right are still there, but even they are now losing out as they too are shaded by the full grown trees at the top of the cutting.
The google streetview is from June 2015 and provides the human interest of a couple of people in orange hi-viz gazing at the tunnel approach.
Mark
The google streetview is from June 2015 and provides the human interest of a couple of people in orange hi-viz gazing at the tunnel approach.
Mark
Blimey. I bet m'learned friends will already be mobilising given the way that vegetation has been allowed to proliferate with consequent leaf fall on the lines - assuming it's Network Rail land of course.
Similar scenes of hugely overgrown land near the railway all over the country of course. I wonder if this will catalyse NR to do something about it?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by grahame at 06:48, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The scheduled RHTT run for earlier in the day on Sunday was cancelled 'at the request of the train operator' and doesn't appear to have run in the days beforehand either. It would have passed through Tunnel Junction four times.
For posterity, here are extracts from that URL


| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TaplowGreen at 07:28, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Any idea why the train operator would ask for it to be cancelled?
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by a-driver at 08:05, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Any idea why the train operator would ask for it to be cancelled?
No driver, no operators, loco failure, set failure, redeployed elsewhere…..
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by lympstone_commuter at 08:55, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
This cab-view video shows the state of the vegetation in the cutting west of the tunnel in 2015.
In this video, signal SY31 is passed at around 38:33 (having become visible at around 38:21), and the junction is passed at around 38:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by lympstone_commuter at 09:12, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
This cab-view video shows the state of the vegetation in the cutting west of the tunnel in 2015.
In this video, signal SY31 is passed at around 38:33 (having become visible at around 38:21), and the junction is passed at around 38:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc
In this video, signal SY31 is passed at around 38:33 (having become visible at around 38:21), and the junction is passed at around 38:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc
apologies - typo - I meant *east* of the tunnel, not west.
Also very best wishes to the driver https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59143021
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by ChrisB at 11:00, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Driver is 75…..is s/he the oldest on the railway?
Various media also reporting a broken ankle
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 11:04, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
There’s an updated RAIB “news story” this morning that explains current understanding:
 RAIB’s preliminary examination has found that the movement of train 1F30 across the junction was being protected from trains approaching on the Down Main line by signal SY31, which was at danger (displaying a red aspect). Train 1L53 passed this signal, while it was at danger, by around 220 metres, immediately prior to the collision occurring.
Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.
Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 11:24, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
No doubt the full report will focus intently on why the RHTT didn't run as scheduled. There may be some difficult questions for Network Rail to answer.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by stuving at 13:03, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
The RIAB statement has this to say about the approach by 1L53 from further back:
Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.
The caution signal, SY29, is passed on that cab video at 37:55, followed by the 50 mph sign just by Laverstock North Junction at 38:08. I presume slowing for the speed limit reduction (from 90 mph) would need to start well before SY29, and once its aspect was seen the speed limit made no difference.
I still can't quite get the timings to work and place the two trains on the junction at once. It's only a couple of minutes, so it may be down to the nature of the timings recorded, or indeed to my sums. The distance from the call at Andover to Salisbury Tunnel Junction is 16m 13ch, and at a steady 90 mph with no call would take 10.9s. Add acceleration time and it's barely possible to get there in 12s (with rounding of times) and the path allowed 15s. Recorded timings at Andover and the junction are 18:30 and (for 1F30) 18:42, so by my reckoning there can't have been much deceleration at all.
Thus I was not surprised by the RAIB's comment about slide starting from the initial service braking application. As to why ... well, that stretch of track is not overhung by big trees like the junction itself. So I shall be interested to see not just the actual timings, but the full explanation of the lack of adhesion. If there is one, of course; previous investigations have often failed to come up with clear evidence from the railhead itself to fully explain sliding.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by Clan Line at 13:23, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Driver is 75…..is s/he the oldest on the railway?
I went to school with someone with the same name as the driver: not a particularly common surname, right age, right area.................I wonder ??
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by broadgage at 13:29, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
Whilst leaves on the rail are the most probable reason for the reported wheel slide, I suppose that oil or grease on the rails is an outside possibility. That could result from a defect on another train leaking oil. Rare, but just about possible.
ISTR a buffer stop collision that occurred some years ago despite the driver braking correctly. Oil or grease contamination was considered as a possible cause.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by paul7575 at 14:31, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse. 
I think your question is overtaken by the latest RAIB explanation, the driver was already emergency braking, so AIUI in that case TPWS just duplicates the demand, but there’s no additional effect?Paul
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by JayMac at 14:34, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
On my train from Salisbury to Templecombe earlier today it was noticeable how much more cautiously we approached each station stop. I presume drivers have been asked to drive even more defensively than they usually do.
| Re: Two trains collide at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury - 31 October 2021 Posted by TonyK at 15:30, 3rd November 2021  |   ![]() ![]() ![]()  | 
I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse. 
I think your question is overtaken by the latest RAIB explanation, the driver was already emergency braking, so AIUI in that case TPWS just duplicates the demand, but there’s no additional effect?Paul
It would seem that the combination of Mk1 human eyeball and Mk1 human brain beat the computers to it.














