| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by johnneyw at 19:23, 19th November 2024 |      |
The Beeb reports today's discussions between Louise Haigh and the Metro Mayors for Manchester and the West Midlands.
Apparently resurrection of HS2 Birmingham to Crewe remains a dead duck but a slower line along the route was included in the options discussed along with upgrading the WCML.
Here's the link:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gz832149eo
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 23:44, 18th November 2024 | |
The maps.nls site has an early 1:500 OS map from those times - it's a series of sheets covering London and they're selective in what they shows (and gives the impression that the surveyers were more than a little overwhelmed at the rate of the changes they saw.)
The map catches both main lines and the West London line in course of construction. It's a map that (eventually) made my scalp prickle as I imagined what the surveyors saw as they went about their work. Here's the place where the two lines (almost) converge.
The map catches both main lines and the West London line in course of construction. It's a map that (eventually) made my scalp prickle as I imagined what the surveyors saw as they went about their work. Here's the place where the two lines (almost) converge.
That was the "skeleton survey", and was only meant to show roads, including frequent spot heights, for the Metropolitan Commissioners of Sewers. NLS have more about the rather complicated history of this set of maps. The published sheets had been reduced to 1:5,280 (12") scale, but the limited amount of fine detail conceals that.
When the survey started in 1848, both railways were already operating, though parts of Euston station were still not finished. There was only a temporary structure at Paddington, and the first permanent one was not started for several years. NLS don't have the map sheets for the Euston area, and at Paddington (sheet VI.SE) there is an empty space with "Paddington Ry Stn (Great Western Terms)" written next to Bishop's Road.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 11:59, 18th November 2024 | |
Thanks for this.
The maps.nls site has an early 1:500 OS map from those times - it's a series of sheets covering London and they're selective in what they shows (and gives the impression that the surveyers were more than a little overwhelmed at the rate of the changes they saw.)
The map catches both main lines and the West London line in course of construction. It's a map that (eventually) made my scalp prickle as I imagined what the surveyors saw as they went about their work. Here's the place where the two lines (almost) converge.
Mark
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.1&lat=51.52979&lon=-0.23174&layers=250&b=OSLeisure&o=100
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 23:37, 17th November 2024 | |
Is it the case that in the very early days, Euston was to be the terminus for the GWR and then there was a change of plan, and it's that that brings the two lines relatively close?
Mark
Mark
Yes, in the sense that the 1834 bill, and the 1835 Great Western Railway Act, only provided for that. At the London end the railway was described as "terminating by a junction with the London and Birmingham Railway in a certain field lying between the Paddington Canal and the turnpike road leading from London to Harrow on the western side of the general cemetery in the parish or township of Hammersmith". However, building started with Paddington as the future terminus, as authorised by the 1837 Great Western Railway Paddington Extension Act.
The route of the LBR was determined before the GWR as a project got going, mainly by topography and who owned the land. So I think that first GWR bill was done that way for speed, since there was competition to get acts for these major railway routes. A western route from Paddington had already been proposed by the London and Windsor Railway in 1833, though nothing came of that. However, the LBR being very close to the line of the extension Brunel had in mind would have suggested this short-cut to getting their bill ready for Parliament
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 19:47, 17th November 2024 | |
Is it the case that in the very early days, Euston was to be the terminus for the GWR and then there was a change of plan, and it's that that brings the two lines relatively close?
Mark
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 19:23, 17th November 2024 | |
Off to Acton, round the North London Line until it reaches the line into Euston
Sort of - though only 300 m of the distance is on the NLL itself. The route leaves the GWML at the entrance to Acton Yard, and runs up the goods lines (the Poplars) to Acton Wells Jn. Having crossed the Central Line, it leaves the NLL for a parallel goods line through the South West Sidings to join the WCML at Kensal Green Jn, where the West London line also joins from the other direction.
Work has started to electrify the Poplars, but that's not for the IETs which can use diesel power. There is also a need for Cl 345s to be moved between the two ends of the Elizabeth Line when it is split at Old Oak Common.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 18:02, 17th November 2024 | |
Off to Acton, round the North London Line until it reaches the line into Euston
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by RailCornwall at 17:42, 17th November 2024 | |
Could anyone detail the route being taken from Reading to Euston and vv. during the Old Oak Common blockades?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 21:24, 7th November 2024 | |
From the BBC
Bat safety shed will cost £100m, says HS2 chairman
A special barrier that will be built to protect rare bats will cost £100m, according to the chairman of HS2 Ltd.
Sir Jon Thompson told a rail industry conference the bat protection structure in Buckinghamshire was needed to appease Natural England, as bats are legally protected in the UK.
The 1km (0.6 mile) curved barrier will cover the tracks alongside Sheephouse Wood near Calvert in Buckinghamshire, to prevent bats being disturbed by high-speed trains.
Sir Jon said there was "no evidence that high-speed trains interfere with bats".
"We call it a shed," he said. "This shed, you're not going to believe this, cost more than £100m to protect the bats in this wood."
Natural England said it had not required HS2 to "adopt this structure", but its role had been to "comment on whether the proposed mitigations will work".
Other more expensive options, including a bored tunnel and re-routing the railway, were considered.
After receiving the green light from Natural England for the design, HS2 Ltd was forced to spend "hundreds of thousands of pounds" on lawyers and environmental specialists because the local council did not approve the work, Sir Jon said.
"In the end, I won the planning permission by going above Buckinghamshire Council's head," he explained.
Buckinghamshire Council opposes HS2 and has previously criticised the project, external for "unnecessarily damaging Sheephouse Wood".
The deputy cabinet member for HS2, Peter Martin, said: "Whilst the council wishes to protect species such as Bechstein's bats, one of the country’s rarest species, it was never supportive of what seemed like extremely excessive costs for a single structure.
"HS2 Ltd has always been adamant that the bat tunnel structure, which has been designed and built by HS2 Ltd’s own contractor, and the associated costs, were necessary, but it is not something we insisted on."
'Trite'
Sir Jon claimed the issue was an example of the UK's "genuine problem" with completing major infrastructure projects.
He told the Rail Industry Association's annual conference that HS2 Ltd had been required to obtain 8,276 consents from other public bodies in order to build phase one of the railway between London and Birmingham.
He said: "People say you've gone over the budget, but did people think about the bats [when setting the budget]?
"I'm being trite about it, but I'm trying to illustrate one example of the 8,276 of these [consents]."
Natural England Chief Operating Officer Oliver Harmar said: "Development and nature must go hand in hand".
"HS2 Ltd is required by legislation to avoid harm to the environment, and it is for them to make choices, consider risks, and factor in costs when deciding how to do this, whether by avoiding species and sites protected for nature or by investing in mitigation to limit harm where the route passes through sensitive sites."
Sir Jon, who has led the project since Mark Thurston left his role as chief executive in September 2023, warned in January that the estimated cost for phase one had soared to as much as £66.6bn - compared to the £37.5bn forecast in 2013
A special barrier that will be built to protect rare bats will cost £100m, according to the chairman of HS2 Ltd.
Sir Jon Thompson told a rail industry conference the bat protection structure in Buckinghamshire was needed to appease Natural England, as bats are legally protected in the UK.
The 1km (0.6 mile) curved barrier will cover the tracks alongside Sheephouse Wood near Calvert in Buckinghamshire, to prevent bats being disturbed by high-speed trains.
Sir Jon said there was "no evidence that high-speed trains interfere with bats".
"We call it a shed," he said. "This shed, you're not going to believe this, cost more than £100m to protect the bats in this wood."
Natural England said it had not required HS2 to "adopt this structure", but its role had been to "comment on whether the proposed mitigations will work".
Other more expensive options, including a bored tunnel and re-routing the railway, were considered.
After receiving the green light from Natural England for the design, HS2 Ltd was forced to spend "hundreds of thousands of pounds" on lawyers and environmental specialists because the local council did not approve the work, Sir Jon said.
"In the end, I won the planning permission by going above Buckinghamshire Council's head," he explained.
Buckinghamshire Council opposes HS2 and has previously criticised the project, external for "unnecessarily damaging Sheephouse Wood".
The deputy cabinet member for HS2, Peter Martin, said: "Whilst the council wishes to protect species such as Bechstein's bats, one of the country’s rarest species, it was never supportive of what seemed like extremely excessive costs for a single structure.
"HS2 Ltd has always been adamant that the bat tunnel structure, which has been designed and built by HS2 Ltd’s own contractor, and the associated costs, were necessary, but it is not something we insisted on."
'Trite'
Sir Jon claimed the issue was an example of the UK's "genuine problem" with completing major infrastructure projects.
He told the Rail Industry Association's annual conference that HS2 Ltd had been required to obtain 8,276 consents from other public bodies in order to build phase one of the railway between London and Birmingham.
He said: "People say you've gone over the budget, but did people think about the bats [when setting the budget]?
"I'm being trite about it, but I'm trying to illustrate one example of the 8,276 of these [consents]."
Natural England Chief Operating Officer Oliver Harmar said: "Development and nature must go hand in hand".
"HS2 Ltd is required by legislation to avoid harm to the environment, and it is for them to make choices, consider risks, and factor in costs when deciding how to do this, whether by avoiding species and sites protected for nature or by investing in mitigation to limit harm where the route passes through sensitive sites."
Sir Jon, who has led the project since Mark Thurston left his role as chief executive in September 2023, warned in January that the estimated cost for phase one had soared to as much as £66.6bn - compared to the £37.5bn forecast in 2013
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 17:32, 30th October 2024 | |
Mark, thank you for the long response. Might we both agree that one of HS2's weaknesses is its poor integration with the "classic" network?
Not at all, thankyou for posting that. I certainly agree with your point if HS2, as built, is London to Birmingham + its link to the classic WCML at Handsacre as in that form it doesn't effectively transfer load from the classic railway.
Sunak's decision crippled the product of many years planning and much physical work - a stark reminder of the perils of bad governance.
Stop-start fashion, it's now being taken to Euston, but the terminus must be at great risk of being boxed in with space constraints and hence lack of futureproofing.
There will be several ghosts in the resulting machine, people attracted to unrealised infrastructure will wonder at Curzon Street's unused platforms, others may find themselves on canal boats passing the already built stub that will carry phase 2a - and which currently comes to an abrupt end at one side of the Trent and Mersey canal, the bridge that was intended to carry the line across the water unbuilt.
Brindley's spirit, when not dreaming of rolling his canals around the contours, or of the days when everyone was wrestling with the principle of a staircase lock on UK soil, would be shaking his head in wonder.
Mark
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 15:12, 30th October 2024 | |
Some good news from the Chancellor's Budget - from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxl1zd07l1o
Transport
£2 cap on single bus fares in England to rise to £3 from January
5p cut to fuel duty on petrol and diesel, due to end in April 2025, kept for another year
Commitment to fund tunnelling work to take HS2 high-speed rail line to Euston station in central London
Commitment to deliver upgrade to trans-Pennine rail line between York and Manchester, running via Leeds and Huddersfield
£2 cap on single bus fares in England to rise to £3 from January
5p cut to fuel duty on petrol and diesel, due to end in April 2025, kept for another year
Commitment to fund tunnelling work to take HS2 high-speed rail line to Euston station in central London
Commitment to deliver upgrade to trans-Pennine rail line between York and Manchester, running via Leeds and Huddersfield
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by eightonedee at 13:59, 30th October 2024 | |
Under normal circumstances, I might sniff at Mr Gilligan's pedigree, but on the four flaws, I feel he may have some good points. As for "Green Signals"...
But - Gilligan's transport experience seems largely as Cycling Czar under Boris Johnson when the letter was Mayor or London, a political appointee on TfL's board under Shapps as Johnson's transport minister. As a journalist his career (as per his Wikipedia profile) included twice costing his newspaper employers substantial libel damages. So - limited experience, none of running any kind of substantial infrastructure project or transport operation outside the M25
Messrs Bowker and Harris of Green Signals are respectively experienced senior manager from major infrastructure projects and transport undertakings and a very experienced senior rail journalist. I think I know which I'd be inclined to take seriously.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 07:42, 30th October 2024 | |
Mark, thank you for the long response. Might we both agree that one of HS2's weaknesses is its poor integration with the "classic" network?
There is integration with the classic network North of Birmingham, the integration at the London end, the link to HS1 was scrapped many years ago, although the OOC - EUS tunnels will have passive provision; however Old Oak Common Station will provide a major interchange. The major integration that were scrapped, the links to Leeds and Derby etc.
HS2 main purpose is capacity release on the WCML South of Crewe
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Trowres at 23:45, 29th October 2024 | |
Mark, thank you for the long response. Might we both agree that one of HS2's weaknesses is its poor integration with the "classic" network?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 22:20, 29th October 2024 | |
This may be my first post on HS2; a subject I have previously chosen to avoid.
Under normal circumstances, I might sniff at Mr Gilligan's pedigree, but on the four flaws, I feel he may have some good points. As for "Green Signals"... could we have some more objective commentary, please?
Mr Gilligan, a former advisor to Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak, blamed four “foundational flaws” – the wrong route, wrong speed, bad connections and “ratchet” project management – for the current state of the line.
Under normal circumstances, I might sniff at Mr Gilligan's pedigree, but on the four flaws, I feel he may have some good points. As for "Green Signals"... could we have some more objective commentary, please?
Every sympathy with people who avoid the subject of HS2... but...
Ah, Mr Gilligan. To pull a few phrases from that piece:
He said that HS2 should have chosen a “better route” along the M40 corridor. - That's the M40 that crosses several sensitive landscapes and after protest had to be routed to take a big bight around Otmoor.
"slicing through ancient woodland" - HS2 has actually done very little slicing of ancient woodland, the impact on ancient woodland has been much overstated by the Woodland Trust among others.
"lowered speed aspirations from 250mph to avoid costlier tracks" - HS2 is about capacity and HS2's speed maximises capacity - but yes, involves more energy to shift trains and also demands more of alignments, so, yes, the balance may perhaps not have been right, with an element of 'Our trains will be faster than your trains'. Slab track is expensive but does though offer big maintenance savings. Is one aspect of HS2 that responsibility for the maintenance has been pushed onto the builders for many years, one of the factors that has pushed up the quotes?
"Former HS2 plans to connect via a “15-minute walk through the streets of Birmingham"" - that's a bit naughty. Onward HS2 trains will not touch Curzon Street, and Birmingham's metro will connect Curzon Street and New Street. (it would have been good if they'd been one big station though).
According to the transport advisor, almost half of the benefits of HS2 will be felt in London and the southeast even if the full scheme is delivered – degrading links from smaller cities such as Stockport, Stoke and Coventry on the main lines. - On to the naughty step with that one too. A principle of HS2 is to free up capacity on the classic network. The likes of Stockport, Stoke and Coventry can then have the opportunity to benefit from the additional capacity released.
He also called proposals for ‘HS2 light’ a “delusion and a trap”. - Hang on, that's one of his foundational flaws. He's just alleged 'Wrong speed' but when a 186mph alternative is floated, he doesn't like that either. What's Andrew's idea for addressing the WCML issues at Colwich, Stafford? Given that one option is shovel ready to Crewe, it might be a good idea to build that, as the legislation is already in place.
"the wrong route" - Concerning the London to Birmingham section - HS2 phase 1 - while we're well into sunk cost territory on that, HS2 phase 1 as a freestanding railway isn't viable - add the length to Crewe and the position improves greatly, with a big win for the classic network too.
Mark
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Trowres at 21:27, 29th October 2024 | |
This may be my first post on HS2; a subject I have previously chosen to avoid.
Mr Gilligan, a former advisor to Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak, blamed four “foundational flaws” – the wrong route, wrong speed, bad connections and “ratchet” project management – for the current state of the line.
Under normal circumstances, I might sniff at Mr Gilligan's pedigree, but on the four flaws, I feel he may have some good points. As for "Green Signals"... could we have some more objective commentary, please?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 19:07, 29th October 2024 | |
Gilligan again.... 
The self proclaimed rail expert ................. Green Signals gave him a glowing endorsement
............ NOT 
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 17:27, 28th October 2024 | |
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 17:25, 28th October 2024 | |
Gilligan again....
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 16:11, 28th October 2024 | |
"Doomed from the start"
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/hs2-doomed-andrew-gilligan-government-b2636742.html
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 10:27, 20th October 2024 | |
I'm not sure that this ministerial oversight will make much difference, that ship sailed some time ago*
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54gv99dz1o
*obviously not a P & O ship!!!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Sixty3Closure at 17:12, 19th October 2024 | |
from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/19/best-in-class-seats-and-no-bog-standard-loos-first-look-at-hs2-train-interiors
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 10:34, 17th October 2024 | |
From the i paper
HS2 ‘will run from London Euston to Crewe’ as Government prepares to reverse cut
The Department for Transport has pushed back on reports that the Government is preparing to announce that HS2 will run from London Euston to Crewe.
Rishi Sunak’s government cancelled the northern leg of the line to Crewe and Manchester last year, meaning that trains are currently expected to stop at Birmingham. However, LBC reported today that the Government was considering reviving Phase 2A of the project, which would extend the line from Birmingham to Crewe.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We have always said we won’t be taking plans for HS2 Phase 2 [between Birmingham and Manchester] back off the shelf after the Conservatives took a wrecking ball to the project and allowed costs to spiral completely out of control.
“But we are committed to delivering better rail connectivity across the north, as set out in our manifesto.
“Transport is an essential part of the Government’s mission to rebuild Britain and grow our economy.”
later
Department for Transport dismisses reports of plans for Birmingham-Crewe HS2 link
The Department for Transport has pushed back on reports that the Government is preparing to announce that HS2 will run from London Euston to Crewe.
Rishi Sunak’s government cancelled the northern leg of the line to Crewe and Manchester last year, meaning that trains are currently expected to stop at Birmingham.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We have always said we won’t be taking plans for HS2 Phase 2 [between Birmingham and Manchester] back off the shelf after the Conservatives took a wrecking ball to the project and allowed costs to spiral completely out of control.
“But we are committed to delivering better rail connectivity across the north, as set out in our manifesto.
“Transport is an essential part of the Government’s mission to rebuild Britain and grow our economy.”
No announcement on a link between Birmingham to Crewe is being planned, the department has said.
The Department for Transport has pushed back on reports that the Government is preparing to announce that HS2 will run from London Euston to Crewe.
Rishi Sunak’s government cancelled the northern leg of the line to Crewe and Manchester last year, meaning that trains are currently expected to stop at Birmingham. However, LBC reported today that the Government was considering reviving Phase 2A of the project, which would extend the line from Birmingham to Crewe.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We have always said we won’t be taking plans for HS2 Phase 2 [between Birmingham and Manchester] back off the shelf after the Conservatives took a wrecking ball to the project and allowed costs to spiral completely out of control.
“But we are committed to delivering better rail connectivity across the north, as set out in our manifesto.
“Transport is an essential part of the Government’s mission to rebuild Britain and grow our economy.”
later
Department for Transport dismisses reports of plans for Birmingham-Crewe HS2 link
The Department for Transport has pushed back on reports that the Government is preparing to announce that HS2 will run from London Euston to Crewe.
Rishi Sunak’s government cancelled the northern leg of the line to Crewe and Manchester last year, meaning that trains are currently expected to stop at Birmingham.
A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We have always said we won’t be taking plans for HS2 Phase 2 [between Birmingham and Manchester] back off the shelf after the Conservatives took a wrecking ball to the project and allowed costs to spiral completely out of control.
“But we are committed to delivering better rail connectivity across the north, as set out in our manifesto.
“Transport is an essential part of the Government’s mission to rebuild Britain and grow our economy.”
No announcement on a link between Birmingham to Crewe is being planned, the department has said.
Wonder where LBC got their info?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 05:39, 10th October 2024 | |
Was any indication given as to how much it'll cost and.........Oooooooooo's gonna pay for it?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
If as UK PLC we look at HS2 as a 100 to 120 year investment over that time it will more than pay for itself.
A comparison is Crossrail all the naysayers said leading up to and during its construction that no one would ever use it ant would be a white elephant.
In the UK we worry too much about the cost of something and not the value of it
Cost is objective, value is subjective.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by anthony215 at 17:05, 9th October 2024 | |
I think Labour are changing the rules with borrowing for large scale infrastructure projects so I think hs2 to Euston and hs2 lite to Crewe at least will benefit. To Euston it's⁸ a no brainer and it's a cheap time to do it as everything is in place ready.
I do hope provisions are made toa allow a hs2 eastern leg to Leeds to be resurrected in the future as the east coast mainline and midland are fast filling up.
A future GWML HS line we need to start planning for especially with some many new services proposed etc
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by bradshaw at 08:35, 9th October 2024 | |
The Times reporting that HS2 lite may built.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78dxlvqy25o
BBC News showing all the national newspaper front pages. For the Times you have to scroll down to read it, the fourth from the top.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 08:06, 9th October 2024 | |
Was any indication given as to how much it'll cost and.........Oooooooooo's gonna pay for it?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
If as UK PLC we look at HS2 as a 100 to 120 year investment over that time it will more than pay for itself.
A comparison is Crossrail all the naysayers said leading up to and during its construction that no one would ever use it ant would be a white elephant.
In the UK we worry too much about the cost of something and not the value of it
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:32, 8th October 2024 | |
Exactly.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by JayMac at 22:27, 8th October 2024 | |
Was any indication given as to how much it'll cost and.........Oooooooooo's gonna pay for it?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
No indication given.
It could all be covered by our Prime Minister's personal wardrobe budget.
Which wasn't funded from the public purse.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 22:23, 8th October 2024 | |
Was any indication given as to how much it'll cost and.........Oooooooooo's gonna pay for it?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
No indication given.
It could all be covered by our Prime Minister's personal wardrobe budget.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 21:03, 8th October 2024 | |
From the Guardian
Building HS2 to Euston and Crewe could pay for itself, analysis finds
Extending high-speed line at both ends would let government charge more for rights to run it, rail leaders say
Building HS2 all the way to London Euston and Crewe could save the government money by enabling it to lease the line out for much more, rail industry leaders have told ministers, as the Treasury weighs up whether to fund tunnels to central London.
The High Speed Rail Group proposes selling the rights to run the line as a long-term concession – on a similar basis to the HS1 rail route linking the capital to the Channel tunnel.
Such a concession would be worth about £20bn if fully developed from central London and joining lines to northern cities, but just a fraction of that under current plans to terminate at Old Oak Common and Birmingham, according to an analysis for HSRG.
The coalition of rail and engineering companies, whose members include Hitachi, Alstom, Siemens and Avanti West Coast, argues that spending billions more now to reach Euston and Crewe would still save the Treasury £3.5bn in the long run.
The claims come as the government decides whether to reinstate tunnelling work to Euston, at a critical juncture in construction. Two giant tunnel-boring machines from Germany are still being installed at Old Oak Common despite the last government suspending wider works, after construction contractors warned that it would be hugely more costly and difficult to contemplate tunnelling once the west London station was completed.
While the transport secretary, Louise Haigh, has indicated the government wants to ensure HS2 reaches into central London, the chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has also asked ministers to draw up billions of pounds’ worth of infrastructure cuts.
According to some reports, Reeves is nonetheless planning to announce guarantees for HS2 to Euston in the 30 October budget. However, the funding mechanism is not clear, with Labour having said it would not overturn Rishi Sunak’s shock axing of HS2’s construction into central London and north of Birmingham last October.
Although Labour has pledged to nationalise train operating companies, it has also wooed private investors to potentially build more infrastructure.
HS1 was sold by the government in 2010 for £2.1bn as a 30-year concession to two Canadian pension funds, which resold the rights to other private equity investors in 2017 for £3bn. Concession owners recoup the investment through track access charges to operators such as Eurostar and income from St Pancras station.
In the analysis by HSRG and the policy group Greengauge 21, the current line from Old Oak Common to Birmingham Curzon Street will cost £47bn, but its limitations mean the railway would have a potential concession value of only £5bn. However, building on to Euston and Crewe, while costing another £11.5bn, could make it worth £20bn.
The National Audit Office, among others, has warned that the truncated HS2 risks worsening current services north of Birmingham owing to a lack of capacity when high-speed trains join the overcrowded west coast line.
Dyan Perry, the chair of HSRG and a former chief executive of HS1, said she “appreciates that the forthcoming budget will involve ministers making tough choices. However, short-term decisions to cut investment into infrastructure would be deeply damaging to the UK, creating uncertainty and jeopardising investor confidence.
“We strongly urge Treasury officials to carefully consider our recommendations and take action to ensure the UK can fully realise the benefits of a connected rail network.”
The wider fate of Euston station is still to be decided, with uncertainty over HS2 putting full rebuilding on hold. The Department for Transport and Network Rail last week announced a short-term plan to urgently improve the overcrowded and unappealing terminus, including immediately turning off the much-criticised enormous advertising screen.
Extending high-speed line at both ends would let government charge more for rights to run it, rail leaders say
Building HS2 all the way to London Euston and Crewe could save the government money by enabling it to lease the line out for much more, rail industry leaders have told ministers, as the Treasury weighs up whether to fund tunnels to central London.
The High Speed Rail Group proposes selling the rights to run the line as a long-term concession – on a similar basis to the HS1 rail route linking the capital to the Channel tunnel.
Such a concession would be worth about £20bn if fully developed from central London and joining lines to northern cities, but just a fraction of that under current plans to terminate at Old Oak Common and Birmingham, according to an analysis for HSRG.
The coalition of rail and engineering companies, whose members include Hitachi, Alstom, Siemens and Avanti West Coast, argues that spending billions more now to reach Euston and Crewe would still save the Treasury £3.5bn in the long run.
The claims come as the government decides whether to reinstate tunnelling work to Euston, at a critical juncture in construction. Two giant tunnel-boring machines from Germany are still being installed at Old Oak Common despite the last government suspending wider works, after construction contractors warned that it would be hugely more costly and difficult to contemplate tunnelling once the west London station was completed.
While the transport secretary, Louise Haigh, has indicated the government wants to ensure HS2 reaches into central London, the chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has also asked ministers to draw up billions of pounds’ worth of infrastructure cuts.
According to some reports, Reeves is nonetheless planning to announce guarantees for HS2 to Euston in the 30 October budget. However, the funding mechanism is not clear, with Labour having said it would not overturn Rishi Sunak’s shock axing of HS2’s construction into central London and north of Birmingham last October.
Although Labour has pledged to nationalise train operating companies, it has also wooed private investors to potentially build more infrastructure.
HS1 was sold by the government in 2010 for £2.1bn as a 30-year concession to two Canadian pension funds, which resold the rights to other private equity investors in 2017 for £3bn. Concession owners recoup the investment through track access charges to operators such as Eurostar and income from St Pancras station.
In the analysis by HSRG and the policy group Greengauge 21, the current line from Old Oak Common to Birmingham Curzon Street will cost £47bn, but its limitations mean the railway would have a potential concession value of only £5bn. However, building on to Euston and Crewe, while costing another £11.5bn, could make it worth £20bn.
The National Audit Office, among others, has warned that the truncated HS2 risks worsening current services north of Birmingham owing to a lack of capacity when high-speed trains join the overcrowded west coast line.
Dyan Perry, the chair of HSRG and a former chief executive of HS1, said she “appreciates that the forthcoming budget will involve ministers making tough choices. However, short-term decisions to cut investment into infrastructure would be deeply damaging to the UK, creating uncertainty and jeopardising investor confidence.
“We strongly urge Treasury officials to carefully consider our recommendations and take action to ensure the UK can fully realise the benefits of a connected rail network.”
The wider fate of Euston station is still to be decided, with uncertainty over HS2 putting full rebuilding on hold. The Department for Transport and Network Rail last week announced a short-term plan to urgently improve the overcrowded and unappealing terminus, including immediately turning off the much-criticised enormous advertising screen.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Timmer at 19:21, 8th October 2024 | |
Slightly off topic but I've heard go ahead will be given for a new bakerloo line fleet
Really hope so as the Bakerloo line is desperately in need of new stock. Good for jobs too that an add on order to the Piccadilly line order goes ahead.| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 16:22, 8th October 2024 | |
No indication given.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 15:52, 8th October 2024 | |
Was any indication given as to how much it'll cost and.........Oooooooooo's gonna pay for it?
Privately funded or taxpayer?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by IndustryInsider at 14:45, 8th October 2024 | |
Slightly off topic but I've heard go ahead will be given for a new bakerloo line fleet
That had to happen at some point soon!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by anthony215 at 13:56, 8th October 2024 | |
Slightly off topic but I've heard go ahead will be given for a new bakerloo line fleet
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 12:47, 8th October 2024 | |
IMHO too. Other reports have a stronger "will go" slant to them.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by broadgage at 11:54, 8th October 2024 | |
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 09:52, 23rd September 2024 | |
Not sure if this is covered elsewhere but a report in The Times today (12/09/24). Probably sounds familiar to anyone who's worked in Project Management.
"The absence of a guiding mind, a single accountable individual in Westminster or Whitehall taking ownership of HS2, led to runaway costs and ultimately the cancellation of the second leg of the high-speed railway project north of Birmingham to Manchester.
That is a key conclusion of a report by the Institution of Civil Engineers into one of the great national debacles of recent times, which says that the lack of a multi-decade commitment to such a large-scale infrastructure scheme left HS2 open to cancellation by a prime minister able to overturn predecessors’ decisions without recourse to parliament."
"The absence of a guiding mind, a single accountable individual in Westminster or Whitehall taking ownership of HS2, led to runaway costs and ultimately the cancellation of the second leg of the high-speed railway project north of Birmingham to Manchester.
That is a key conclusion of a report by the Institution of Civil Engineers into one of the great national debacles of recent times, which says that the lack of a multi-decade commitment to such a large-scale infrastructure scheme left HS2 open to cancellation by a prime minister able to overturn predecessors’ decisions without recourse to parliament."
That ICE report is ICE Briefing Paper: The cancellation of HS2’s northern leg – learning lessons
I didn't get a clear idea from it of what might or could have been possible if the whole project had been better done from the start. Maybe that's too much to ask for! This commentary has no named author, so presumably it is an institutional opinion.
Two other ICE reports are relevant here. Civil engineering insights on HS2 and alternative proposals is a narrative of the project's evolution to 2022, with limited discussion of some of the cost-reducing alternatives proposed. And Reducing the gap between cost estimates and outturns for major infrastructure projects and programmes does pretty much what its title says. It has rather more about managing risk, unforeseen changes, and expectations than getting estimates that predict outturns.
HS2 has always been cursed by a bad client .......... the UK Government which from its inception has been a vanity project for various Government Sectaries of State, Ministers and Prime Ministers the need to build it as one of fastest in Europe 360 km/h (225 mph) and not at a more sedate speed of HS1 300 km/h (190 mph) or even just a 225 km/h (140mph) with more emphasise on the capacity and not the 15 mins off of the journey London / Birmingham.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 18:38, 22nd September 2024 | |
Not sure if this is covered elsewhere but a report in The Times today (12/09/24). Probably sounds familiar to anyone who's worked in Project Management.
"The absence of a guiding mind, a single accountable individual in Westminster or Whitehall taking ownership of HS2, led to runaway costs and ultimately the cancellation of the second leg of the high-speed railway project north of Birmingham to Manchester.
That is a key conclusion of a report by the Institution of Civil Engineers into one of the great national debacles of recent times, which says that the lack of a multi-decade commitment to such a large-scale infrastructure scheme left HS2 open to cancellation by a prime minister able to overturn predecessors’ decisions without recourse to parliament."
"The absence of a guiding mind, a single accountable individual in Westminster or Whitehall taking ownership of HS2, led to runaway costs and ultimately the cancellation of the second leg of the high-speed railway project north of Birmingham to Manchester.
That is a key conclusion of a report by the Institution of Civil Engineers into one of the great national debacles of recent times, which says that the lack of a multi-decade commitment to such a large-scale infrastructure scheme left HS2 open to cancellation by a prime minister able to overturn predecessors’ decisions without recourse to parliament."
That ICE report is ICE Briefing Paper: The cancellation of HS2’s northern leg – learning lessons
I didn't get a clear idea from it of what might or could have been possible if the whole project had been better done from the start. Maybe that's too much to ask for! This commentary has no named author, so presumably it is an institutional opinion.
Two other ICE reports are relevant here. Civil engineering insights on HS2 and alternative proposals is a narrative of the project's evolution to 2022, with limited discussion of some of the cost-reducing alternatives proposed. And Reducing the gap between cost estimates and outturns for major infrastructure projects and programmes does pretty much what its title says. It has rather more about managing risk, unforeseen changes, and expectations than getting estimates that predict outturns.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 18:15, 14th September 2024 | |
It is not just about shaving time off of passenger journey time to Manchester and even Glasgow, the key thing it will do is leverage the capacity for freight that phase 1 of HS2 will creates South of Midlands
Exactly so. So long as it is built to take the planned HS2 trains, the speed is not vital. And if it transpires in years to come that speed is vital after all, track can be replaced using slab as it wears out. Tunnels and viaducts will surely use slab track anyway.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 07:28, 14th September 2024 | |
Analysis of this on the WNXX forum if anyone is interested - https://wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37546&start=425
In short, it's almost exactly the same route, a little more expensive in the long-run with ballasted track, a bit slower but still 85 minutes Euston to Manchester which seems pretty reasonable to me.
In short, it's almost exactly the same route, a little more expensive in the long-run with ballasted track, a bit slower but still 85 minutes Euston to Manchester which seems pretty reasonable to me.
It is not just about shaving time off of passenger journey time to Manchester and even Glasgow, the key thing it will do is leverage the capacity for freight that phase 1 of HS2 will creates South of Midlands
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Noggin at 09:29, 13th September 2024 | |
Analysis of this on the WNXX forum if anyone is interested - https://wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37546&start=425
In short, it's almost exactly the same route, a little more expensive in the long-run with ballasted track, a bit slower but still 85 minutes Euston to Manchester which seems pretty reasonable to me.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 08:08, 13th September 2024 | |
The i paper appears to have picked up on this too
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/labour-will-look-at-hs2-north-replacement-as-mayors-point-to-70bn-growth/ar-AA1qu1uY?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=8b95985b869f4d468b1e59c010bdd4de&ei=10
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 07:13, 13th September 2024 | |
Interesting alternative proposal?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/plan-to-build-cheaper-version-of-scrapped-hs2-northern-leg-unveiled-and-journeys-would-only-be-15-minutes-longer/ar-AA1qu8Wq?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b541e92022844906803719db12943552&ei=11
A little ominously;
The report did not provide an estimated cost of the new project.....
However;
...."said financing should be "maximised from the private sector", with central and local governments "partnering to fund the balance".
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Sixty3Closure at 12:24, 12th September 2024 | |
Not sure if this is covered elsewhere but a report in The Times today (12/09/24). Probably sounds familiar to anyone who's worked in Project Management.
"The absence of a guiding mind, a single accountable individual in Westminster or Whitehall taking ownership of HS2, led to runaway costs and ultimately the cancellation of the second leg of the high-speed railway project north of Birmingham to Manchester.
That is a key conclusion of a report by the Institution of Civil Engineers into one of the great national debacles of recent times, which says that the lack of a multi-decade commitment to such a large-scale infrastructure scheme left HS2 open to cancellation by a prime minister able to overturn predecessors’ decisions without recourse to parliament."
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 18:17, 3rd September 2024 | |
Could be a U turn approaching?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
It could only be regarded as a U-turn if the Conservative's had won the GE, whilst I agree Labour had stated they would not automatically reveres the previous Government decision to cancel HS2 phase 2, it would have been foolhardy not have carried out a review of the section North of Handsacre Jcn, the CEO of Network Rail, Andrew Haines, raised concerns and impact the decision by the previous PM would have on the WCML with the DfT.
The capacity release for virtually the whole WCML is to build a Stafford avoiding line, Stafford is where the real bottleneck is currently. The new line may not be build to the full HS2 spec but even a modern 125 - 150 mph route will give a vast improvement
I based my use of the phrase "U Turn" on this from Starmer......
BBC News - HS2 northern leg not possible to revive - Starmer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67924577
And the quote within it......."Sir Keir Starmer says his party will not revive the northern leg of HS2 if they win the next general election" - which I think most reasonable people would consider pretty unequivocal?
It is still pragmatic to review the options North of Handsacre Jcn, the right of way has legal powers, the land has be acquired. It does not need to be built to HS2 line speed though.
Building the "Stafford bypass" will leverage most of the added capacity of HS2 phase 1 the only way to get the full benefit of phase 1 would be Bashford Hall station at Crewe and the platform works at Manchester and Glasgow, which still remain cancelled
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 11:03, 3rd September 2024 | |
Could be a U turn approaching?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
It could only be regarded as a U-turn if the Conservative's had won the GE, whilst I agree Labour had stated they would not automatically reveres the previous Government decision to cancel HS2 phase 2, it would have been foolhardy not have carried out a review of the section North of Handsacre Jcn, the CEO of Network Rail, Andrew Haines, raised concerns and impact the decision by the previous PM would have on the WCML with the DfT.
The capacity release for virtually the whole WCML is to build a Stafford avoiding line, Stafford is where the real bottleneck is currently. The new line may not be build to the full HS2 spec but even a modern 125 - 150 mph route will give a vast improvement
I based my use of the phrase "U Turn" on this from Starmer......
BBC News - HS2 northern leg not possible to revive - Starmer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-67924577
And the quote within it......."Sir Keir Starmer says his party will not revive the northern leg of HS2 if they win the next general election" - which I think most reasonable people would consider pretty unequivocal?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 08:11, 3rd September 2024 | |
Could be a U turn approaching?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
It could only be regarded as a U-turn if the Conservative's had won the GE, whilst I agree Labour had stated they would not automatically reveres the previous Government decision to cancel HS2 phase 2, it would have been foolhardy not have carried out a review of the section North of Handsacre Jcn, the CEO of Network Rail, Andrew Haines, raised concerns and impact the decision by the previous PM would have on the WCML with the DfT.
The capacity release for virtually the whole WCML is to build a Stafford avoiding line, Stafford is where the real bottleneck is currently. The new line may not be build to the full HS2 spec but even a modern 125 - 150 mph route will give a vast improvement
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 09:06, 2nd September 2024 | |
For Handsacre to Crewe in particular, I'm not sure it's even a U-turn. The decision to cancel that was the equivalent of a passenger hitting the button and kicking off an unconsidered emergency brake and the principle, the legislation and the planning for that part of HS2 has a lot of mass. Arguably its forward momentum while a bit virtual is still there for the taking.
Mark
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 20:52, 1st September 2024 | |
Could be a U turn approaching?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
U-turns aren't easy on railways. In any case, I don't think anyone has yet said "Definitely not". I couldn't read the paywalled article, but have picked up the gist from other sources.
It may be less an about turn, and more the result of a thorough trawl through the figures. For certain, we know that stopping then restarting in the future will add enormous cost. The first question, does it still need doing, shouldn't take too long to answer if your government wants to ease pressure on existing transport corridors and stimulate growth. The alternatives to achieve the same result were looked at years ago. There could then be a sober assessment of what it would cost to cancel, how much work has already been contracted, and any other additional costs that would have to be met, go or no-go. In that latter category, I have seen a suggestion that HS2 carriages will need extra doors to improve dwell times if they are going to mix with mere mortal traffic, and may also need steps down because of differing platform heights. The final cost between building and not building might not be so great as we have been led to believe. A decision one way or the other will be unpopular somewhere, so politically would be best taken at the start of a government with a big majority. It might even be a good time to reintroduce the Golborne link.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 17:12, 23rd August 2024 | |
Could be a U turn approaching?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/08/22/labour-to-reconsider-building-scrapped-hs2-route/
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by eightonedee at 21:51, 10th August 2024 | |
There's an excellent Green Signals podcast & You Tube video (latter at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcp0ZQiMuw&t=227s) this week explaining exactly what the impact of cancelling stage 2A will be.
Hang your head in shame Rishi Sunak, and yours too Rachel Reeves for being so quick to refuse to review the decision.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 16:32, 29th July 2024 | |
HS2 wasn't specifically referred to in the Chancellors speech, so we'll need to see the detail.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 22:06, 28th July 2024 | |
I am quite sure the empty platforms will soon become an urban jungle with lots of Buddleia. The ajacent areas between the tracks at Proof house and Grand Junctions are completely overgrown and it will soon spred.
What? Build new platforms and not have a maintenance plan to keep them spick and span?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ellendune at 12:35, 28th July 2024 | |
Article on HS2's current predicament from New Civil Engineer magazine. Apologies if this suddenly becomes paywalled.
Mark
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/transport-secretary-working-at-pace-on-plan-for-hs2-euston-station-22-07-2024/
Mark
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/transport-secretary-working-at-pace-on-plan-for-hs2-euston-station-22-07-2024/
NCE allows anyone so many views per month so presumably you exceeded you view count!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyN at 23:19, 27th July 2024 | |
I am quite sure the empty platforms will soon become an urban jungle with lots of Buddleia. The ajacent areas between the tracks at Proof house and Grand Junctions are completely overgrown and it will soon spred.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 15:25, 27th July 2024 | |
A taster from today's Times, the rest of which is probably behind a paywall.
Birmingham HS2 station to be completed with four unused platforms
More than half of Curzon Street’s high-speed platforms will be redundant, but it would cost more to pare back the scheme than to finish it
Ben Clatworthy, Transport Correspondent
Friday July 26 2024, 7.45pm, The Times
Birmingham will be left with a vast “white elephant” station after Rishi Sunak’s decision to scrap large swathes of the HS2 project.
Sunak announced in October that the second phase of the project, connecting Birmingham and the north of England, would be axed.
However, work on the new seven-platform Birmingham Curzon Street station was so far progressed by the time the decision was made that it will be cheaper to continue as originally planned than to pare back the scheme.
More than half of Curzon Street’s high-speed platforms will be redundant, but it would cost more to pare back the scheme than to finish it
Ben Clatworthy, Transport Correspondent
Friday July 26 2024, 7.45pm, The Times
Birmingham will be left with a vast “white elephant” station after Rishi Sunak’s decision to scrap large swathes of the HS2 project.
Sunak announced in October that the second phase of the project, connecting Birmingham and the north of England, would be axed.
However, work on the new seven-platform Birmingham Curzon Street station was so far progressed by the time the decision was made that it will be cheaper to continue as originally planned than to pare back the scheme.
To precis, Curzon Street was scheduled to have seven platforms, but only three will now be needed. The contract to build was signed in 2021. It makes no sense to build all seven, but even less sense to pay the company to do nothing. So all seven platforms will be built, but four will not have rails or signalling or anything else that hadn't been cast in granite. Similarly, the magnificent viaduct between tunnel and station will be built as planned, branching into 3 double and one single track sub-viaducts, two of which will have no track. The viaduct could be redesigned, but that would take 18 months, cost millions, and have a knock-on effect for everything else. The design for the rolling stock is also to remain as-is, even though they will now be running on the WCML. They are 60 metres shorted than a Pendolino and a lot less tilty, meaning they will carry fewer passengers at a slower speed than existing traffic. This apparently translates into 17% fewer seats for passengers heading north of Birmingham.
I can offer a possible use for the four spare platforms, to house the new Sunak Museum of Chaotic Government. That would be a logical adjunct to the planned Johnson Museum of Chaotic Government, to be sited in a now-derelict former off-licence near Downing Street. We could use some of the money he saved by cancelling the bit heading for the Unlevelled Lands north of the bullring. And if someone decided it was worth doing one day, it would be easy enough to convert it into the midway call of a high-speed rail link from London to Manchester.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Red Squirrel at 11:22, 26th July 2024 | |
No HS2 northern leg properties sold - minister
No properties bought up for the northern leg of HS2 have been sold since the project was scrapped, the Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed.
Phase two of the high-speed rail line linking the West Midlands to Manchester was cancelled by former Prime Minister Rishi Sunak in October, amid rising costs.
Transport minister Lord Peter Hendy of Richmond Hill told the House of Lords he understood no sales had been made.
It came in response to concerns about rail capacity between Handsacre in Staffordshire, where HS2 joins the West Coast Main Line, and Crewe.
Speaking on Tuesday, Lord Hendy said: "The prioritisation of the High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill is recognition that east-west connectivity is immediately necessary for growth, jobs and housing."
He added that the government would "bear in mind" the issue of connectivity north of Handsacre.
[...continues]
Source: BBCNo properties bought up for the northern leg of HS2 have been sold since the project was scrapped, the Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed.
Phase two of the high-speed rail line linking the West Midlands to Manchester was cancelled by former Prime Minister Rishi Sunak in October, amid rising costs.
Transport minister Lord Peter Hendy of Richmond Hill told the House of Lords he understood no sales had been made.
It came in response to concerns about rail capacity between Handsacre in Staffordshire, where HS2 joins the West Coast Main Line, and Crewe.
Speaking on Tuesday, Lord Hendy said: "The prioritisation of the High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill is recognition that east-west connectivity is immediately necessary for growth, jobs and housing."
He added that the government would "bear in mind" the issue of connectivity north of Handsacre.
[...continues]
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 15:04, 23rd July 2024 | |
Article on HS2's current predicament from New Civil Engineer magazine. Apologies if this suddenly becomes paywalled.
Mark
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/transport-secretary-working-at-pace-on-plan-for-hs2-euston-station-22-07-2024/
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 12:51, 23rd July 2024 | |
National Audit Office report: HS2: update following cancellation of Phase 2.
From the summary document:
"The government’s decision to cancel Phase 2 created uncertainties in a range of complex areas, particularly as HS2 Ltd and other rail organisations had not been involved with the decision."
Mark
https://www.nao.org.uk/reports/hs2-update-following-cancellation-of-phase-2/
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Noggin at 14:44, 22nd July 2024 | |
Job cuts and further questions over Euston..............
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/hs2-back-in-the-spotlight-amid-job-cuts-and-euston-woes/ar-BB1qmLlq?ocid=BingNewsVerp
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/hs2-back-in-the-spotlight-amid-job-cuts-and-euston-woes/ar-BB1qmLlq?ocid=BingNewsVerp
HS2 job cuts - hardly seems surprising to be cutting land-acquisition related roles if they are effectively not going to be the ones building anything further, suspect that in the fullness of time HS2 will all be rolled back into NR/GBR, with NPR being a "hero" project for a new GBR in the meantime.
Euston - no-one's going to sign-off on redevelopment without agreeing what number of platforms to build and who's going to pay for it anyway. It won't be finished this Parliament anyway so wouldn't be surprised if they held off to make it another GBR hero project and in the meantime gave Mayor Khan Crossrail 2 as an incentive to tow the line.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 20:10, 21st July 2024 | |
Job cuts and further questions over Euston..............
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/hs2-back-in-the-spotlight-amid-job-cuts-and-euston-woes/ar-BB1qmLlq?ocid=BingNewsVerp
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 20:53, 19th July 2024 | |
I don't think there's any intention of making that Crewe - Manchester an HS line - just more direct that currently - to speed up Liverpool - Manchester - York services
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 20:49, 19th July 2024 | |
Using the ex-Hs2 Bill to provide East-West connectivity around Crewe instead
Which I suppose could result in HS2 trains going superfast from London to Birmingham on their own line, then along the WCML to Crewe, then superfast to Manchester's newly extended Piccadilly Station. How long before someone suggests building the missing bit of high speed line?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 21:19, 17th July 2024 | |
Using the ex-Hs2 Bill to provide East-West connectivity around Crewe instead
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 18:22, 17th July 2024 | |
Any incoming new government is going to hold a review of HS2 - as of all big spending programmes. Mostly this is done invisibly, but for HS2 I expect something more formal and announced. Its remit is pretty obvious: what's left of HS2 does not make a lot of sense - consider the options for continuing northwards, so as to give most of the benefits of the planned phase 2 at an affordable cost.
Labour confirm they won't be resurrecting it.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1924361/hs2-future-confirmed-kings-speech
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 21:52, 12th July 2024 | |
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill CBE holds a PSV licence .............he will not be the same as Lord Adonis, in regards building new High Speed railways.
He is unlikely to price people off of rail services, it will be more where does the Government investment go, more importantly what investment can the Metro Mayors and County / Local Authorities bring to rail
He is unlikely to price people off of rail services, it will be more where does the Government investment go, more importantly what investment can the Metro Mayors and County / Local Authorities bring to rail
He owns two Routemasters, used in the annual scheduled number 23A services to Imber. He doesn't own a train, but I think he will prove a good leader for rail generally - as head of NR, I am sure he had to bite his lip and do what he was told to do by the Minister on occasion. As Minister, he won't have to do that. He might not be the same sort of visionary as Andrew Adonis, but they sing from the same hymn book. Time will tell.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Electric train at 06:08, 12th July 2024 | |
Our new Minister of State for Rail (no mention of HS2 in the title unlike his predecessor) is none other than Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill CBE, currently chair of Network Rail. Unlike some earlier holders of the post, he has form (I nearly said track record) in public transport over a lot of years, most prominently in London with TfL, then as Commissioner of Transport, appointed by Ken Livingston and kept on by Boris Johnson. Our new PM seems to have gone for experience and pragmatism, choosing someone who has already worked across party lines. One could be forgiven for thinking that there is a wish for an end to the games of political football over railways in general and HS2 in particular.
Rachel Reeves must surely know where the money for a resurrected northern bit of HS2 would come from, as it would be the same borrowing against future fares as before. A lot of money has already been spent acquiring land and in planning, and whilst that doesn't mean it can't be written off along with compensation for any cancelled contracts, it does mean the cost is likely to be lower per mile. Lord Hendy will be in a better position to lobby for the support if he thinks it is worthwhile putting the whole northern route back on the map, or to identify key areas to improve to get some of the same results if he decides it isn't. Otherwise, he is probably going to have to be the one who decides whether to price passengers off the WCML, or freight, like a sort of pre-emptive Beeching. The extra capacity so badly needed won't happen unless somebody builds it.
Rachel Reeves must surely know where the money for a resurrected northern bit of HS2 would come from, as it would be the same borrowing against future fares as before. A lot of money has already been spent acquiring land and in planning, and whilst that doesn't mean it can't be written off along with compensation for any cancelled contracts, it does mean the cost is likely to be lower per mile. Lord Hendy will be in a better position to lobby for the support if he thinks it is worthwhile putting the whole northern route back on the map, or to identify key areas to improve to get some of the same results if he decides it isn't. Otherwise, he is probably going to have to be the one who decides whether to price passengers off the WCML, or freight, like a sort of pre-emptive Beeching. The extra capacity so badly needed won't happen unless somebody builds it.
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill CBE holds a PSV licence .............he will not be the same as Lord Adonis, in regards building new High Speed railways.
He is unlikely to price people off of rail services, it will be more where does the Government investment go, more importantly what investment can the Metro Mayors and County / Local Authorities bring to rail
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 22:22, 11th July 2024 | |
Our new Minister of State for Rail (no mention of HS2 in the title unlike his predecessor) is none other than Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill CBE, currently chair of Network Rail. Unlike some earlier holders of the post, he has form (I nearly said track record) in public transport over a lot of years, most prominently in London with TfL, then as Commissioner of Transport, appointed by Ken Livingston and kept on by Boris Johnson. Our new PM seems to have gone for experience and pragmatism, choosing someone who has already worked across party lines. One could be forgiven for thinking that there is a wish for an end to the games of political football over railways in general and HS2 in particular.
Rachel Reeves must surely know where the money for a resurrected northern bit of HS2 would come from, as it would be the same borrowing against future fares as before. A lot of money has already been spent acquiring land and in planning, and whilst that doesn't mean it can't be written off along with compensation for any cancelled contracts, it does mean the cost is likely to be lower per mile. Lord Hendy will be in a better position to lobby for the support if he thinks it is worthwhile putting the whole northern route back on the map, or to identify key areas to improve to get some of the same results if he decides it isn't. Otherwise, he is probably going to have to be the one who decides whether to price passengers off the WCML, or freight, like a sort of pre-emptive Beeching. The extra capacity so badly needed won't happen unless somebody builds it.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Noggin at 12:28, 10th July 2024 | |
I suspect that:
1) HS Euston will get built as a "Grand Project", along with CR2 to prove to the punters and investors that Labour can get things done and keep Sadiq Khan quiet, but will somehow be done "off balance sheet".
2) HS Liverpool to Manchester (and beyond to Leeds) will be progressed through design stages and legislation, incorporating part of the HS2 route - remember 2030 is 200 years of Liverpool to Manchester Railway, keeping Burnham, Rotheram (and Rayner) quiet
3) They won't actually bother to build much of the middle bits of HS2, but money will instead go to the corridors Hendy identified for union connectivity.
Hopefully Dan Norris will be bought off with a WECA rail electrification scheme.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by paul7575 at 19:17, 9th July 2024 | |
I'm wondering what the new Chancellor intends to do with all the land north of Birmingham that was purchased for HS2 which the previous administration intended to sell off after that phase was cancelled. Surely there wasn't time to sell any of it before the election?
I hear there are plans for a plantation of magic money trees.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 09:26, 9th July 2024 | |
Any incoming new government is going to hold a review of HS2 - as of all big spending programmes. Mostly this is done invisibly, but for HS2 I expect something more formal and announced. Its remit is pretty obvious: what's left of HS2 does not make a lot of sense - consider the options for continuing northwards, so as to give most of the benefits of the planned phase 2 at an affordable cost.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 07:07, 9th July 2024 | |
I'm wondering what the new Chancellor intends to do with all the land north of Birmingham that was purchased for HS2 which the previous administration intended to sell off after that phase was cancelled. Surely there wasn't time to sell any of it before the election?
I hear there are plans for a plantation of magic money trees.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ellendune at 23:36, 8th July 2024 | |
I'm wondering what the new Chancellor intends to do with all the land north of Birmingham ...
[/quote]The chancellor was asked about HS2 to Leeds - she did not say no. She just said she would have to know where the money was coming from first.
I wondered where the 2.5million houses were going to go!
They have only promised 1.5 million houses
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by grahame at 22:34, 8th July 2024 | |
2 ...
I'm wondering what the new Chancellor intends to do with all the land north of Birmingham ...
Plus 2 ...
I wondered where the 2.5million houses were going to go!
Equals more that 4?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by ChrisB at 21:08, 8th July 2024 | |
I wondered where the 2.5million houses were going to go!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by johnneyw at 19:48, 8th July 2024 | |
I'm wondering what the new Chancellor intends to do with all the land north of Birmingham that was purchased for HS2 which the previous administration intended to sell off after that phase was cancelled. Surely there wasn't time to sell any of it before the election?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by a-driver at 17:43, 8th July 2024 | |
The final questioner in Rachel Reeves' presser this morning (8 July) asked whether HS2 will get to Leeds. Reeves replied that she will not make any commitments until she knows where the money would come from...
Roughly translated as “NO”.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Red Squirrel at 11:20, 8th July 2024 | |
The final questioner in Rachel Reeves' presser this morning (8 July) asked whether HS2 will get to Leeds. Reeves replied that she will not make any commitments until she knows where the money would come from...
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Mark A at 07:59, 22nd March 2024 | |
Yes, that job of working behind the cutting head in that small space, removing the arisings with a shovel, that must be a nightmare and one of the worst jobs in tunnelling. Full time oversight from Saint Barbara needed. :-)
Mark
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 00:37, 22nd March 2024 | |
Florence's sister Cecilia has now also had her coming-out party (so they are now both debutantes). So here's another very staged picture and story from HS2:
Final breakthrough for HS2’s longest tunnel
Published on 21 Mar 2024
Second tunnel boring machine (TBM), Cecilia, reaches northern portal of 10 mile high-speed rail tunnel under Chiltern Hills.
The second giant boring machine (TBM) building HS2 under the Chiltern Hills broke through at the tunnel’s northern portal late this afternoon, completing a journey that began in June 2021.
Named Cecilia, the TBM has driven for 10 miles underground to join twin sister machine – Florence. She arrived at the site near the Buckinghamshire town of Wendover on 27 February, after completing her adjacent tunnel drive.
Between them, the two 2,000 tonne machines have built the twin bore tunnel at depths of up to 80 metres and excavated three million cubic metres of chalk. Each machine operates like an underground factory, able to excavate the tunnels and line them with 56,000 pre-cast concrete tunnel segments, grouting them into place and moving forward at an average speed of 16 metres per day...
Published on 21 Mar 2024
Second tunnel boring machine (TBM), Cecilia, reaches northern portal of 10 mile high-speed rail tunnel under Chiltern Hills.
- Arrival marks completion of mammoth drive taking two years and nine months.
- 2,000 tonne Cecilia joins twin sister machine, Florence, following her arrival last month.
- Download high resolution images of the breakthrough.
- View and embed footage of the spectacular breakthrough moment.
The second giant boring machine (TBM) building HS2 under the Chiltern Hills broke through at the tunnel’s northern portal late this afternoon, completing a journey that began in June 2021.
Named Cecilia, the TBM has driven for 10 miles underground to join twin sister machine – Florence. She arrived at the site near the Buckinghamshire town of Wendover on 27 February, after completing her adjacent tunnel drive.
Between them, the two 2,000 tonne machines have built the twin bore tunnel at depths of up to 80 metres and excavated three million cubic metres of chalk. Each machine operates like an underground factory, able to excavate the tunnels and line them with 56,000 pre-cast concrete tunnel segments, grouting them into place and moving forward at an average speed of 16 metres per day...
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 10:17, 29th February 2024 | |
That overhead power-carrying pylon is a tad close for comfort. Imagine the power cuts if that had been on top of one of the sinkholes
I doubt that any power cuts would have resulted. ALL major grid lines are duplicated, with at least one alternative route available in case of fault or failure.
All but the smallest villages have at least two different routes by which power may be supplied.
A pylon line carries two circuits, so a single circuit failure is covered by duplication. But the grid's rules do apply at the level of routes as well. This is defined in National Electricity Transmission System Security and Quality of Supply Standard, where it says (inter many alia):
4.6 The minimum transmission capacity of the MITS shall also be planned such that for the conditions described in paragraph 4.4 and for the secured event of a fault outage of any of the following:
4.6.1 a single transmission circuit, a reactive compensator or other reactive power provider;
4.6.2 a single generation circuit, a single generating unit (or several generating units sharing a common circuit breaker), a single power park module, or a single DC converter;
4.6.3 a double circuit overhead line on the supergrid;
4.6.4 a double circuit overhead line where any part of either circuit is in NGET’s transmission system or SHET’S transmission system;
4.6.5 a section of busbar or mesh corner; or
...
4.6.7 loss of supply capacity (except as permitted by the demand connection criteria detailed in Section 3 and Section
;
4.6.8 unacceptable overloading of any primary transmission equipment;
4.6.9 unacceptable voltage conditions or insufficient voltage performance margins;
4.6.10 system instability; or
4.6.11 Unacceptable Sub-Synchronous Oscillations
4.6.1 a single transmission circuit, a reactive compensator or other reactive power provider;
4.6.2 a single generation circuit, a single generating unit (or several generating units sharing a common circuit breaker), a single power park module, or a single DC converter;
4.6.3 a double circuit overhead line on the supergrid;
4.6.4 a double circuit overhead line where any part of either circuit is in NGET’s transmission system or SHET’S transmission system;
4.6.5 a section of busbar or mesh corner; or
...
4.6.7 loss of supply capacity (except as permitted by the demand connection criteria detailed in Section 3 and Section
;4.6.8 unacceptable overloading of any primary transmission equipment;
4.6.9 unacceptable voltage conditions or insufficient voltage performance margins;
4.6.10 system instability; or
4.6.11 Unacceptable Sub-Synchronous Oscillations
But there are exceptions, such as Grimsby West - currently fed by a single two-circuit line. Note that the DNO's network is built on the same principles, so there will be alternative connection from other grid substations to any of their customers (but these may have limited capacity).
There is a plan to have a plan to build a new line from Grimsby West, south to Walpole on the Wash. Consultations have started, though the Planning Inspectorate don't expect an application until 2027. The reasons given for doing this are about capacity not security, but I'm sure that's a motive too.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by broadgage at 04:16, 29th February 2024 | |
That overhead power-carrying pylon is a tad close for comfort. Imagine the power cuts if that had been on top of one of the sinkholes
I doubt that any power cuts would have resulted. ALL major grid lines are duplicated, with at least one alternative route available in case of fault or failure.
All but the smallest villages have at least two different routes by which power may be supplied.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 18:02, 27th February 2024 | |
If that was the plan, no-one told Florence. Seen in a drone video having emerged by yesterday, minister or no minister.
HS2 have now said Florence will break through today (heard on BBC South Today at lunchtime). If you look on the video, the cutterhead is just short of actually emerging from the face of the retaining wall. So I guess the wall broke up prematurely, perhaps because Florence braked too late. So how do they get a video of the breakthrough event? Build a new wall quickly? Fake it using footage from their previous videos (they have lots)?
From HS2's video of the event, it is clear that the blue TBM face you can see is not Florence (her face paint was scratched off long ago) but Muriel. The 'gap' ring around that where the cutters show through does, however, seem to have been there beforehand.
But this whole breakthrough thing is very stage managed, and appears to have been entirely minister-free.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 14:42, 27th February 2024 | |
If that was the plan, no-one told Florence. Seen in a drone video having emerged by yesterday, minister or no minister.
HS2 have now said Florence will break through today (heard on BBC South Today at lunchtime). If you look on the video, the cutterhead is just short of actually emerging from the face of the retaining wall. So I guess the wall broke up prematurely, perhaps because Florence braked too late.
So how do they get a video of the breakthrough event? Build a new wall quickly? Fake it using footage from their previous videos (they have lots)?
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 14:34, 27th February 2024 | |
Delaying things to suit a minister seems to be falling out of fashion after the Post Office saga.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 22:56, 26th February 2024 | |
I think that's close to where Cecilia is. Florence is a bit further on, at the northern portal, waiting for a suitable opportunity to emerge. That was meant to a minister's hard-hat opportunity, but a number of things recently have made ministers a bit twitchy about doing such things. I don't suppose this helps.
BBC (Paul Clifton) reporting that Tuesday’s media visit to film the tunnelling ‘breakthrough’ beneath the Chilterns a short distance from the sinkholes has been postponed.
A coincidence I'm sure!
If that was the plan, no-one told Florence. Seen in a drone video having emerged by yesterday, minister or no minister.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 19:06, 26th February 2024 | |
You need a new fag packet.....add another 3 zeros onto £670,000 & multiply by 7.
As I set off in the car about 10 minutes after I wrote that, I thought "Hang on a minute... I hope nobody notices before I get home." It is of course £940 million pa, and I'm blowed if I can think which orifice I plucked the first figure out of. That makes it a lot bigger, but still not as big as it sounds. A large amount of that will go on roads, leaving little for rail. I would assume that anything announced in the recent rash of station rebuilds - Cullompton, Wellington near me - will be included in this, so not much is going to be left for new rail projects. It might help pay for amendments to salvage something from the many schemes drawn up to link northern towns and cities to a HS2 that won't be coming.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 15:30, 26th February 2024 | |
As I read it, this is a 7-year program of funding, amounting to £4.7 billion coming into force in April 2025. Doing some fag-packet maths of my own (I don't smoke, so it might not be accurate) I make that about £670,000 per year, or about 2% of Devon County's transport and infrastructure budget to be spent across the whole country, taken from money that would have been spent up to 15-20 years from now, and which hasn't even been borrowed yet. I wouldn't call it transformative. From other works of fantasy, I would compare it to either Lewis Carroll's White Queen's promise of "Jam tomorrow" (but only those little single portion pots) or J R R Tolkien's description by Bilbo Baggins of himself becoming "thin, like butter spread over too much bread".
You need a new fag packet.....add another 3 zeros onto £670,000 & multiply by 7.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by eightonedee at 12:58, 26th February 2024 | |
For those who do not subscribe to Paul Whitewick's excellent You Tube channel, here's his take on the HS2 fiasco (and some of the opposition to it, both "environmental" and economic).-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fS_KrQExIE
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 12:55, 26th February 2024 | |
As I read it, this is a 7-year program of funding, amounting to £4.7 billion coming into force in April 2025. Doing some fag-packet maths of my own (I don't smoke, so it might not be accurate) I make that about £670,000 per year, or about 2% of Devon County's transport and infrastructure budget to be spent across the whole country, taken from money that would have been spent up to 15-20 years from now, and which hasn't even been borrowed yet. I wouldn't call it transformative. From other works of fantasy, I would compare it to either Lewis Carroll's White Queen's promise of "Jam tomorrow" (but only those little single portion pots) or J R R Tolkien's description by Bilbo Baggins of himself becoming "thin, like butter spread over too much bread".
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Noggin at 11:16, 26th February 2024 | |
If I understand correctly, it's a 7 year settlement from 2025 to 2032 which gives a *lot* of money to local authorities and considerable leeway on how to spend it.
It's probably a sensible move - a long-term funding window gives local authorities the means to build a pipeline of rail projects that would have been previously outside their budget.
Despite the delays with Portishead reopening, much of WECA's plans are slowly coming to fruition, with dramatic increases in service frequency, new stations, funding the preliminary work on Temple Meads and Filton Bank electrification etc.
Of course there's certainly a political element to it - the Labour devolved administrations are not going to let a Labour Government in Westminster steal their thunder, let alone take any of this funding away.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TonyK at 23:54, 25th February 2024 | |
I think Louise Haigh pretty much nails it. Though it wasn’t a particularly difficult nail to hit!
Rather looks that way. The sudden dash to spend money locally before the election isn't fooling everybody. Let's face it, most of the money "saved" by scrapping the clever bit of HS2 wouldn't have been spent for another decade or more, so hasn't even been borrowed yet. The works the money is being spent on are by and large things that should have been done routinely, not put on hold for 10 years.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by IndustryInsider at 12:23, 25th February 2024 | |
I think Louise Haigh pretty much nails it. Though it wasn’t a particularly difficult nail to hit!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 09:55, 25th February 2024 | |
An interesting day in prospect tomorrow.............
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sunak-to-hold-regional-cabinet-as-local-transport-fund-announced/ar-BB1iPIJu
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Red Squirrel at 17:11, 21st February 2024 | |
Meanwhile... exactly 49 years ago today, the BBC's Nationwide (sigh) reported on how the government had scrapped the Channel Tunnel project because "it was not prepared to underwrite the astronomic cost". Deja vu all over again?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/cancelled_channel_tunnel_workers/znf6xyc
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by Bob_Blakey at 10:02, 19th February 2024 | |
A geologist writes.....
Whichever Ministerial representative(s) had been nominated to this media event need a good slap for such an abject example of political cowardice. As stated in previous posts within this thread, and in the wider world of common knowledge, sinkholes, and indeed larger caverns up to and including underground waterways, are not exactly rare in significant areas of strata composed largely of calcium carbonate. AKA Chalk in this instance.
They should have turned up and been prepared to explain why such small scale fissures are/were not really an issue.
I would bet that if UK winter rainfall continues as recently the BBC, and others, will have to scaremonger repeatedly long after HS2 construction has been completed.
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by TaplowGreen at 07:58, 19th February 2024 | |
I think that's close to where Cecilia is. Florence is a bit further on, at the northern portal, waiting for a suitable opportunity to emerge. That was meant to a minister's hard-hat opportunity, but a number of things recently have made ministers a bit twitchy about doing such things. I don't suppose this helps.
BBC (Paul Clifton) reporting that Tuesday’s media visit to film the tunnelling ‘breakthrough’ beneath the Chilterns a short distance from the sinkholes has been postponed.
A coincidence I'm sure!
| Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion Posted by stuving at 23:45, 18th February 2024 | |
I think that's close to where Cecilia is. Florence is a bit further on, at the northern portal, waiting for a suitable opportunity to emerge. That was meant to a minister's hard-hat opportunity, but a number of things recently have made ministers a bit twitchy about doing such things. I don't suppose this helps.
