| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Electric train at 12:32, 21st November 2024 |      |
From the days when British Rail EMU's and diesel electric locomotives had DC traction motors which had air vents for forced air cooling
11 February 1991. British Rail's Director of Operations, Terry Worrall, was asked to comment in BBC radio 4 "Today" programme, interviewer Jim Naughtie, on the adverse effects of the unusually heavy 1991 snowfall on railway services that winter. Terry Worrall explained that "we are having particular problems with the type of snow, which is rare in the UK" Jim Naughtie replied "Oh, I see, it was the wrong kind of snow," to which Worrall replied, "No, it was a different kind of snow".
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by ray951 at 08:52, 21st November 2024 | |
Talking of snow, but in the South West:
Due to heavy snow between Crediton and Okehampton the line is blocked. Disruption is expected until 10:45 21/11.
Impact:
Train services between Exeter St Davids and Okehampton via Crediton will be cancelled.
Customer Advice:
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We are sorry for the disruption to your journey this morning.
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Heavy snow fall in the area between Crediton and Okehampton means we are currently unable to run trains along the line to Okehampton.
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You are advised not to attempt to travel along this route at this time. The snow is also affecting the roads in the area and we are currently unable to provide replacement road transport.
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We will update this message with more information when we have it.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Electric train at 06:37, 21st November 2024 | |
Snow and ice cause a number of problem,
- Points and switches freezing - this is counteracted by the use of electric point heaters, these have control systems that monitor cold and 'hot' rail and the humidity, in some locations in the UK there are driven snow sensors; most of these control units report back to Route / Regional monitoring system.
Conductor rail ice - the use of de-icing trains, basically the same units as the RHTT but with a different deployment head and the use of a de-icer fluid, "ghost trains" which are EMU's run by the TOCs on behalf of NR are run normally at night but can also be during the day; there are some locations with electric conrail heating typically at platforms and certain signals.
OLE - with freezing rain ice can build up on the contact wire which can damage pan heads, in the UK we don't have OLE heating systems unlike parts of Europe, the exception is HS1, NR will run "ghost trains" if the likely hood of ice on the OLE contact wire is a risk. Also heavy snow can build up on insulators and cause a flashover.
Lineside equipment - driven snow and snow drifts can get into electrical / signalling equipment causing shorts often only found as the snow thaws
Staff - it is just a general challenge for Operations, reactive and maintenance teams to get into work and get out to lineside equipment and for train crew get to booking on points
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by grahame at 06:03, 21st November 2024 | |
People sometimes ask "why do railway signals have the red light at the bottom, but road traffic lights have the red light at the top"
Modern railway signals have a single lens that changes colour, or two if they are in 4 aspect land, though I grant you that in places that time has stood still, and where a proper National Rail service is not provided too that's the case. There are still places with systems of wires and pulleys and rectangular board that are horizontal for stop, horizontal with a fishtail for caution, and either at 45 degrees or vertical for proceed at line speed.
Snow was a problem with some of these earlier systems, as illustrated at Abbots Ripton on 21st January 1876.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by broadgage at 03:32, 21st November 2024 | |
People sometimes ask "why do railway signals have the red light at the bottom, but road traffic lights have the red light at the top"
Answer=in railway signals, each coloured light has has a cowling above to shield it from direct sunlight as this could be misleading. Any build up of snow on this cowling can obstruct the view of the light above it. With the red stop light at the bottom, there is no cowling below it upon which snow can build up.
In such severe weather roads are often closed, so snow obstruction of road signals is less important. Of greater importance is that the red light should be seen over the top of any other vehicles closer to the signal. Having the red light at the top helps.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by IndustryInsider at 17:06, 20th November 2024 | |
I thought it was wet snow that sticks, not dry powder snow which the draft from passing train just blows around.
The times I've seen it (mostly from the last heavy snowfall we had nearly 15 years ago) it's been wind and passing trains that has carrried the powdered dry snow onto the signal lens/hood and become impacted in there. That's not to say wet snow won't cause any problems mind you.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by rogerw at 17:01, 20th November 2024 | |
A reasonable amount in Bristol. Almost an inch on top of my car.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by broadgage at 04:35, 20th November 2024 | |
No snow reported in the Minehead area, light sleet showers are forecast.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 18:10, 19th November 2024 | |
We also had some snow here in Nailsea, this morning - North Somerset.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by grahame at 17:05, 19th November 2024 | |
Apparently the current snowfall for midlands and north was on the Met office week ahead forecast since last Wednesday and was specifically warned about, so anyone saying it has come as a shock clearly hasn't checked weather for days.
It was, but only as far south as Birmingham, even in yesterday's forecast. They did get it wrong, even this morning until reports of actual snow aired in the media did they mention Oxfordshire & Bucks.
Wiltshire too
Do you have much snow in your part of Melksham? It's snowing in Queensway at the moment. It's at least 0.000006 of an inch deep here.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by ChrisB at 16:47, 19th November 2024 | |
Apparently the current snowfall for midlands and north was on the Met office week ahead forecast since last Wednesday and was specifically warned about, so anyone saying it has come as a shock clearly hasn't checked weather for days.
It was, but only as far south as Birmingham, even in yesterday's forecast. They did get it wrong, even this morning until reports of actual snow aired in the media did they mention Oxfordshire & Bucks.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by broadgage at 15:24, 19th November 2024 | |
From the BBC:
**snip**
"Snow and ice always pose a challenge at this time of the year, not only to the track, it can also obscure signals
**snip**
"Snow and ice always pose a challenge at this time of the year, not only to the track, it can also obscure signals
**snip**
Does snow lead to signal sighting issues? (I mean, in gross amount, yes, it would bury them...)
Mark
VERY heavy falling snow can obscure the drivers view of a signal, this is only a concern during exceptionally heavy falling snow.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by John D at 07:48, 19th November 2024 | |
It can cover the signal lenses in extreme conditions, windy with a dry snow. Modern LED’s produce no heat to melt it either.
I thought it was wet snow that sticks, not dry powder snow which the draft from passing train just blows around.
Apparently the current snowfall for midlands and north was on the Met office week ahead forecast since last Wednesday and was specifically warned about, so anyone saying it has come as a shock clearly hasn't checked weather for days.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by IndustryInsider at 20:03, 18th November 2024 | |
It can cover the signal lenses in extreme conditions, windy with a dry snow. Modern LED’s produce no heat to melt it either.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 19:56, 18th November 2024 | |
Ground position light signals? Just a suggestion.
| Re: De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Mark A at 19:29, 18th November 2024 | |
From the BBC:
**snip**
"Snow and ice always pose a challenge at this time of the year, not only to the track, it can also obscure signals
**snip**
"Snow and ice always pose a challenge at this time of the year, not only to the track, it can also obscure signals
**snip**
Does snow lead to signal sighting issues? (I mean, in gross amount, yes, it would bury them...)
Mark
| De-icer and empty trains to tackle snow disruption, North West England - November 2024 Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 18:36, 18th November 2024 | |
From the BBC:
Specialist de-icer teams and empty trains will help tackle any possible snow disruption across the north-west of England, rail operators have said.
A yellow weather warning for snow and ice forecast for the region has meant cold weather plans for Merseyrail and Network Rail have been activated.
Merseyrail will run empty trains on their lines on Tuesday so rail conditions can be checked before services begin.
Staff at Network Rail will also be equipped with specialist kits to defrost frozen points and signals to keep the railway running safely.
Temperatures are expected to fall to minus 3C overnight with challenging conditions expected for the rest of the week, including snow, ice and freezing rain.
Network Rail said this could impact rail travel on some rural routes in the Peak District, across the Pennines between Manchester, Leeds and in Cumbria.
Chris Pye, Network Rail’s North West route infrastructure director, said: "Snow and ice always pose a challenge at this time of the year, not only to the track, it can also obscure signals and causes branches to fall from trees on to the line. We work hard to ensure that points, which we use to direct trains on the track, don’t become compacted with snow and ice. We have teams who can monitor these remotely and further teams on standby ready to respond to heavy snow, should it be needed."
Across the Merseyrail network the first service of the day on each line will run without customers to enable conditions to be checked.
If predicted ice and snow arrives, Merseyrail and Network Rail said they would work together to run as many first trains as possible. Customers are being urged to check the Merseyrail and National Rail website, and social media before they travel.
