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Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
As at 8th November 2024 16:04 GMT
 
Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 13:18, 5th November 2024
 
From the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cde7dwkpz5xo

Both trains involved in a fatal crash in mid Wales were moving at the time of the collision, investigators have revealed.

David Tudor Evans, 66, died after two trains crashed near the village of Llanbrynmair in Powys on 21 October.

It was initially said that a service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth hit a stationary train which was travelling from Machynlleth to Shrewsbury.

Now, the Rail Accidents and Investigations Branch (RAIB) has said both trains were moving at the time of impact and there was conflicting evidence about how fast they were going.

On Tuesday, the RAIB issued an update on the investigation, adding that an automated system that helps train wheels grip tracks failed.

It said initial analysis indicated the 1J25 service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth was travelling between 15mph (24 km/h) and 24mph (39 km/h).

The 1S71service from Machynlleth to Shrewsbury was travelling at about 6mph (10 km/h) in the opposite direction.

The RAIB said it inspected the automatic sanding system, which automatically sprays sand via hoses when a wheel slide is detected during braking, in a bid to generate more friction.

It said the inspection of the system fitted to train 1J25 showed these hoses on the leading vehicle of the train "were blocked and apparently unable to discharge sand".

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by ChrisB at 17:06, 29th October 2024
 
Salisbury wouldn't have benefitted from trap points as the train joining the through route was signalled in front of the 'straight on' train - that did the sliding into the train from the left. So the only place a trap would take that 'straight on' train would be into the tunnel arch, if indeed you could even get a trap point there

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 13:51, 29th October 2024
 

I am reassured when on the Cornish main line that where the double line goes to single
line at Largin East with a 1 in 57 falling gradient towards Bodmin Road, there has historically, for
obvious good reasons, been a trap point and long sand drag.


Trap points (and sand drags) were very much more "necessary" in the days before all trains had brakes throughout but they remain of significant use in many situations today.  I seem to remember a turbo on its way into Paddington from the sidings not all that long ago that overshot a signal and ran off the line.   It did (and these things do) still do damage, but that damage was lessened.

Fewer trains run away or overrun these days, and they probably don't get as far when they do.  So I'm not shocked at the reduction in the number of trap points.  However, Salisbury has shown up (and Talerddig probably has) that overruns are not eliminated and that on the occasions that trains run through there can be significant damage done if they overrun so far that they come into contact with another train.  It will be very interesting to see what the RAIB have to say, if anything, about trap points, drags, safety zones, etc.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by AMLAG at 18:31, 28th October 2024
 

I am reassured when on the Cornish main line that where the double line goes to single
line at Largin East with a 1 in 57 falling gradient towards Bodmin Road, there has historically, for
obvious good reasons, been a trap point and long sand drag.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by ChrisB at 17:41, 28th October 2024
 
And the eastbound train then collides with the likely derailed westbound service? Which would cause most damage/injury?

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by broadgage at 16:43, 28th October 2024
 


I would have had some similar questions, but await reports rather than speculating too much.  I don't think that there ARE (real) signals there any more - the whole thing being under ERTMS.  And, yes, it would appear that there are not real trap points either, or if there are they didn't trap when that might have been expected. Interesting from the reports that the train from Aberystwyth seems to have been stationary at the time of collision.

Edit to add - Witham Bobby posted while I was writing the above .. which I have chosen to leave even though it broadly duplicates what he says

Surely the remote control, rather than a local signal box, does not prevent the use of trap points.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Witham Bobby at 12:03, 28th October 2024
 
I would have had some similar questions, but await reports rather than speculating too much.  I don't think that there ARE (real) signals there any more - the whole thing being under ERTMS.  And, yes, it would appear that there are not real trap points either, or if there are they didn't trap when that might have been expected. Interesting from the reports that the train from Aberystwyth seems to have been stationary at the time of collision.

With the ERTMS radio link, the driver of the train from Shrewsbury will have been able to warn the Machynlleth signaller, who could have instructed the driver of the train heading towards the Tallerdig loop to stop.  That is speculation, but reasonable

Short sketchy outline of the system here: https://ertms.freightliner.co.uk/news/a-trip-on-the-cambrian/

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 11:57, 28th October 2024
 
It seems to me that there is a small but real risk of a similar accident occurring in the future, unless mitigated by by very restrictive speed limits.
Sounds as though trap points would help. It appears that one train was driven correctly into the passing loop, where it should have been held at the signal protecting the exit from the loop onto the main line.
There has been no suggestion of any signalling failure, one may therefore presume that this signal was passed at danger due to poor adhesion.
Trap points, interlocked with the signal protecting the exit from the loop would prevent any repeat. Exit signal showing a proceed aspect=points in the normal position allowing train onto main line.
Exit signal at danger=trap points automatically set to divert the train into a sand drag.

I would have had some similar questions, but await reports rather than speculating too much.  I don't think that there ARE (real) signals there any more - the whole thing being under ERTMS.  And, yes, it would appear that there are not real trap points either, or if there are they didn't trap when that might have been expected. Interesting from the reports that the train from Aberystwyth seems to have been stationary at the time of collision.

Edit to add - Witham Bobby posted while I was writing the above .. which I have chosen to leave even though it broadly duplicates what he says

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Witham Bobby at 11:53, 28th October 2024
 
It seems to me that there is a small but real risk of a similar accident occurring in the future, unless mitigated by by very restrictive speed limits.
Sounds as though trap points would help. It appears that one train was driven correctly into the passing loop, where it should have been held at the signal protecting the exit from the loop onto the main line.
There has been no suggestion of any signalling failure, one may therefore presume that this signal was passed at danger due to poor adhesion.
Trap points, interlocked with the signal protecting the exit from the loop would prevent any repeat. Exit signal showing a proceed aspect=points in the normal position allowing train onto main line.
Exit signal at danger=trap points automatically set to divert the train into a sand drag.

The Cambrian is operated on a unique ETRMS signalling system.  There are no signallers or signalboxes at the remote passing places. Train occupation of the route and speeds are controlled from Machynlleth.   The pointwork at each end of the passing loops is locally controlled.  There are no fixed running signals.   I believe (but stand ready to be corrected) that trains leaving the loop lines run through these trailing points as a matter of routine operation.  I don't see that trap points can be provided.  They are mostly absent now on the wider network at similar types of location.  Locally to me, Evesham West Junction and Ascott-under-Wychwood spring to mind as having no traps, although the junction points at these locations are operated from signalboxes.  The protection is provided by having an overlap ahead of the signal which gives access to the single line, in theory giving a safety margin before the fouling point of the junction is reached.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by broadgage at 11:31, 28th October 2024
 
It seems to me that there is a small but real risk of a similar accident occurring in the future, unless mitigated by by very restrictive speed limits.
Sounds as though trap points would help. It appears that one train was driven correctly into the passing loop, where it should have been held at the signal protecting the exit from the loop onto the main line.
There has been no suggestion of any signalling failure, one may therefore presume that this signal was passed at danger due to poor adhesion.
Trap points, interlocked with the signal protecting the exit from the loop would prevent any repeat. Exit signal showing a proceed aspect=points in the normal position allowing train onto main line.
Exit signal at danger=trap points automatically set to divert the train into a sand drag.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by infoman at 10:49, 28th October 2024
 
Thank you Grahame for the update.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 09:54, 28th October 2024
 
There is a good summary on Wikipedia including a track diagram and further detail not in the general press. It includes "The two trains were separated on 24 October and taken to Machynlleth by rail the next day" which answers a question asked here previously.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Mark A at 09:08, 28th October 2024
 
The line has reopened for the start of service this morning.

Mark

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 18:34, 27th October 2024
 
Not seen anything saying if the coach's were removed by rail or road.

All of the major sources use the same words
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7n5myvle0o
https://news.tfw.wales/news/cambrian-line-to-reopen-following-rail-accident
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-train-crash-update-line-30233213

Transport for Wales (TfW) is in the process of removing the two trains

As an educated guess, I would think that's because they or some of their readers might consider it insensitive or ghoulish to talk about how the remains are removed at a place where some were seriously injured and which perhaps triggered the passing of one person too.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by stuving at 18:13, 27th October 2024
 
So why don't these trains have an electromagnetic brake?

For a short answer, from an operator that uses them:
NS, the Dutch rail operator, identify the advantages as:
- roughening / cleaning of the rail (also for following trains);
- improved performance of the normal brakes;
- improved train detection.
They identify the disadvantages as:
- uncomfortable brake force when activated;
- wear of railhead;
- a speed dependent brake force;
- safety acceptance (variant / geography dependent);
- high maintenance costs.
[From Managing Low Adhesion, the AWG Manual, Sixth Edition, DRG January 2018]

In other words, they have advantages and disadvantages. And, not being established practice here, they have an acceptability (or inertia) hump to get over. 

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by infoman at 17:40, 27th October 2024
 
Not seen anything saying if the coach's were removed by rail or road.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by jamestheredengine at 16:26, 27th October 2024
 
So why don't these trains have an electromagnetic brake?

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Oxonhutch at 22:58, 26th October 2024
 
I presume they have had to repair a pair of busted points that the sliding train busted through on its way out of the loop, in which it was scheduled to stop; unless they are trailable by design

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by grahame at 18:39, 26th October 2024
 
From Railnews

Trains are expected to start running again on the Cambrian line between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury on Monday.

Buses have been replacing trains since last Monday, when two Transport for Wales trains collided head-on near Talerddig passing loop.

One man died and fifteen other passengers were injured, four of them seriously, when a westbound train overran the loop and collided with an eastbound train. It has been reported that the man who lost his life had suffered a heart attack.

Article continues including more details of re-opening steps

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 02:27, 26th October 2024
 
I'm quoting this, in full, from the BBC, without comment:

On board the 18:31 to Aberystwyth as it smashed into another train



On Monday evening, Jonah Evans was relaxing on a train, watching a Netflix drama and completely unaware he was about to be involved in a fatal train crash.

"The driver comes running through the doors and shouts ‘brace yourselves, brace yourselves, we're going to hit another train’," says the 25-year-old.

He had just seconds to get into position before impact.  "I was thinking… ‘it’s been a good ride, it's been a good life’."

One passenger died, four were seriously injured and a further 11 people required hospital treatment following the crash.

The artist and graphic designer had just spent a weekend celebrating his birthday with friends in Bristol and was heading home to Borth, Ceredigion, when the crash happened at about 19:30 BST.

He says that after his train hit a stationary one, everything felt like it was in slow motion.

Passengers on the 18:31 westbound service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth, were thrown from their seats. Mr Evans was uninjured, apart from whiplash.

"Seeing all those people upset was horrible.... it kind of feels like a fever dream," he says.

"This one girl was really crying out, she was at a table seat and it proper hit her in the middle of her body and she started throwing up," he says.  "She started crying quite a lot... it was pretty horrendous."

He recalled seeing people around him with rib injuries, one person with a dislocated or broken arm and another person who had lost some teeth.

Another passenger Bethan Evans, who was knocked unconscious on the same train as Mr Evans, recalled seeing waking up to find passengers "flown out of their seats".

"The last thing I remember is reading one of my books and looking at the time," she says.  "I saw a few people with broken bones and hearing emergency CPR being called and a lot of staff running down."

Anthony Hurford, who was on the other train - the 19:09 train from Machynlleth to Shrewsbury - found himself on the floor "wondering what the hell had happened".

"The word that keeps coming to my head is just brutal really," he told BBC Breakfast.  "Somehow my body bent the leg of a table and ripped it off its bolts attached to the wall.  Suddenly I was on the floor with my laptop strewn ahead of me."

Tudor Evans, 66, from Capel Dewi in Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, who was in the second carriage, died following the crash - which happened near the village of Llanbrynmair in Powys.

On Thursday, his friend Iestyn Leyshon told the Newyddion S4C app that he and his wife had "just begun to travel after years of work and then this tragedy happens".

The couple were returning from a holiday in Italy at the time of the crash.  His family have thanked people for "kind messages and support", and asked for privacy.

How did the trains crash?



The crash happened on the Cambrian Line on a single track, close to a passing loop where opposite travelling trains can pass each other.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) said initial evidence suggested the crash occurred at a speed of approximately 24 km/h (15 mph).

It said it had deployed a team of inspectors to the site and on initial inspection found evidence that wheel to rail adhesion was relatively low, suggesting the train may have entered into wheel slide when braking.  It said low adhesion would be an area of ongoing investigation.  But what is low adhesion?

"That’s the jargony way of saying that the trains’ wheels are not gripping the top of the rail properly so you’re getting a sliding situation," says rail engineer and rail and transport writer Gareth Dennis.  "So if the breaks are being applied the train is just sliding along on top of the rail."

He says it could be caused by fallen leaves "or sometimes you get very strange combinations of mist and rain that can end up creating a bit of an oily surface on top of the rail head and that’s extremely slippery.  What will be interesting is understanding why we got to a situation where the rail was so slippery as a train hit another train," he says.  "We have systems in place to prevent that from happening and those haven’t worked so we ned to understand why and that might require some introspection from the industry."

How common are train crashes in the UK?


A full report into the crash is expected to take several months

“The reason rail incidents become big news like this is because they’re extremely rare events and that’s a good thing," says Mr Dennis.

The National Rail website states that train travel "remains one of the safest modes of transport in Great Britain".

One of the UK's most high-profile train accidents of last year was in September 2023, when the Flying Scotsman collided with stationary carriages at Aviemore Station in the Scottish Highlands, injuring two people.

The last train crash in Wales happened in 1991 inside the Severn Tunnel, which allows travel between south-west England and south Wales.  On 7 December, 1991, the 08:30 from London Paddington to Cardiff Central was stopped at a signal at the tunnel’s entrance.  The train’s driver was advised of a signal failure and told to proceed with caution, but about three miles into the tunnel, it was rear-ended by a class 155 Sprinter travelling from Portsmouth to Cardiff.  A total of 185 people were injured in the collision, five of whom were seriously hurt.

It is not yet clear when we will find out exactly what happened on Monday.

Network Rail's route director, Nick Millington, says the investigation is going to be "complex".

TfW chief operating officer Jan Chaudhry-van der Velde says a full report would take several months to be processed.

Mr Dennis says it is imperative the public were given clear answers.

"To reassure the public the industry needs to be honest, not hide behind 'well the regulator said this, the regulator said that' and be honest with the public about how this has happened," he says.

He says after the RAIB gives its final report the industry should "respond constructively and in a way that shows some contrition that something has gone wrong".

"Because something has gone wrong here," he says.  "For there to be two trains crashing into one another and resulting people being injured and worse, something has gone wrong."



Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by JayMac at 19:47, 23rd October 2024
 
According to some sources the driver of the unit that was sliding left his cab before impact and warned passengers of the impending collision.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by IndustryInsider at 18:37, 23rd October 2024
 
The crumpled state of one cab is clear. I wonder why one cab suffered such damage whilst the other cab looks almost undamaged.

It doesn't look that bad to me.  It looks like the left hand drivers side cab panel (as we look at it) has partly broken off and is hanging loose, along with the roof section but the damage is largely superficial and in keeping with what you'd expect from a 15 mph impact speed.  There may also be damage to the underframe of course, which we can't see. 

Visible damage is a good thing of course as it means that energy that has been absorbed and not transferred through the whole train.  The driver is in the most vulnerable position of course, but the front cab of that unit doesn't appear to have been pushed back too far by the impact. 

We can't see the other side of the other unit to see if that suffered similar damage on the opposite side, but a difference in the extent of the damage might be explained by the fact that one unit was moving and the other stationary during the collision.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 16:26, 23rd October 2024
 
From the BBC:

Passenger who died in mid Wales train crash named

A man who died after the train he was travelling on collided with another train in mid Wales has been named locally as Tudor Evans.

He was in his 60s and from the Aberystwyth area of Ceredigion.

Four other people were seriously injured in the crash near Llanbrynmair, Powys, on Monday evening, and a further 11 required hospital treatment, according to the Rail Accident Investigations Branch (RAIB).

British Transport Police said it did not currently believe his death was as a result of injuries sustained in the crash.

Mr Evans had been travelling on the 18:31 westbound service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth on Monday evening when it hit a stationary train heading from Machynlleth to Shrewsbury.

On initial inspection, the RAIB found that the train may have entered into wheel slide when braking.

It said initial evidence suggested the collision occurred at a speed of approximately 24km/h (15mph).

Transport for Wales (TfW) chief operating officer Jan Chaudhry van der Velde said a full report would take several months to be processed.

Politicians sent their thoughts to train crash victims during prime minister's questions on Wednesday.

Speaking in the House of Commons, Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner sent her "condolences to those affected by the train crash in Powys".

Deputy leader of the opposition Oliver Dowden echoed her comments about the crash.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by infoman at 06:56, 23rd October 2024
 
I presume that when the time comes to lift the coach's off the rails,

it will be done with heavy lift road cranes.

Having said that,they may be moved away to the sidings area to await further removable.


Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by anthony215 at 23:44, 22nd October 2024
 
Tfw shut the heart of wales line for most of today due to railhead conditions.  One service which did partially run took an hour or more to travel a section of track timed to take 8 minutes.

Tfw got 158838 at Barton hill in Bristol think they'll be happy to get that's back into service

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by stuving at 23:31, 22nd October 2024
 
The RAIB have put out an initial notice of their investigation. As well as the usual procedural stuff, it contains:
At around 19:26 on the evening of 21 October 2024, the 18:31 Transport for Wales passenger service from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth collided with another train on Network Rail’s Cambrian line, approximately 800 metres west of the passing loop located at Talerddig, Powys. Initial evidence suggests that collision occurred at a speed of approximately 24 km/h (15 mph). The second train involved was the 19:09 Machynlleth to Shrewsbury passenger service, also operated by Transport for Wales.

One passenger tragically died and four other people were seriously injured. Eleven more people sustained injuries which required hospital treatment.
RAIB’s initial inspection of the track on approach to the point of collision found evidence that wheel/rail adhesion was relatively low, suggesting that the train may have entered into wheel slide when braking. This will be an area of ongoing investigation.

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Electric train at 18:06, 22nd October 2024
 


I should not start reading anything into Network Rail "inspecting" rather than "repairing" the track should I ...



Routine practice for the area to be inspected by senior engineers who will highlight any areas of concern to RAIB, repairs will not commence until after RAIB have completed their site investigation

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Mark A at 14:32, 22nd October 2024
 
That rail line will likely be carrying more people than usual from the end of the month as the A470 will close until just before Christmas to repair its issue with the retaining wall, and will not fully open until February, more below from the highway authority.

Mark

https://traffic.wales/current-projects/a470-talerddig-retaining-wall-works

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 14:06, 22nd October 2024
 
I've moved and merged a couple of topics here, simply in the interests of clarity and continuity.

CfN. 

Re: Collision between two trains at Llanbrynmair, in Powys, Wales - 21 October 2024
Posted by Mark A at 14:01, 22nd October 2024
 
Line profile -  https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/linefiles/route/?ELR=SBA2 -  I am trying to work out where the loop is which (amazingly) this link doesn't seem to tell me!

The Sectional Appendix gives a Mileage for Tallerdig at 61m 26ch.  Just on the Machynlleth side of the summit

I believe Llanbrynmair is at around 65m, reading that gradient profile


The loop's at the very short flat bit at the top of the climb. Google Streetview has imagery from the level crossing there. I'm trying to recall the wording on the board at the start of the descent, to the effect: "All goods trains to stop dead here and pin down brakes". It can't be a million years ago that it was removed, perhaps when the line's mechanical signalling was replaced.

Mark

https://tinyurl.com/4a6k92jw

 
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