There's always one rebel who follows the instructions...

 
To explain the above comment, there was a brief time where in Swindon a controller could stop the tape recording. Keeping the piece of paper in your possession prevented the hindsight committee making accusations of missing calls or making additional stops causing delay minutes and as we all know the railway is now run on delay attribution.

A little story, Saturday afternoon many years ago I'm on the 1430 BTM Paddington. Sat in the front cab of my lovely HST when a member of platform staff asks if I sign the B+H. Yep. He says he'll return, something has just happened. A few minutes later he returns with not to call orders for Chippenham, Swindon and Didcot. Off we go but at Barf Spa the screens are showing Chippenham etc and the dispatcher says you're now calling. I require a Special Stop Order to countermand the not to call order. But in the few minutes it takes to write out the paperwork it has been decided to go via the B+H. So I rip up the SSO and tell the TM to do the same, I have the BTM issued not to call orders which is fine for me. During this time the passengers are off, on and back off. Left around 10 late, the Pompey has cleared off, an up WOE is held at Hawkridge for me, so it's greens all the way from Barf to Reading excent for the distant approaching Hawkridge. Some very aggressive driving, black box compliant (ish) 3 late Reading and RT Paddington. Paperwork kept for a few weeks just in case

 
I was the awkward one who always insisted on the correct paperwork. Never got questioned.

 

They usually receive a signed form known as a 'Stop Order' or 'Not to Stop Order' from a member of station staff (which is also given to the Guard).  Occasionally this isn't possible in which case they act on verbal authority from the signaller or control (both are on recorded lines).

 
How are train crew notified of late amended station stops after they've started their shift?
As in, you book on at x o'clock with the station stops listed on your duty board for the day.
Then journeycheck throws in a few additional station stops 'because a train was cancelled'.
GWR need to tell all the crew, not just the driver!

 

In the past driver training has been subsidised by DaFT. I remember complaints from those awaiting a course being told postponed due to no money from DaFT. Then suddenly you start next month, normally after a holiday has been booked.

 
Indeed - DfT not requiring the extra knowledge - and will suffer from it later, but they won't mind (until everything goes tits up, and then they'll launch another 'enquiry')

 

Zombie franchise now - why would GWR take on the cost and responsibility of recruitment and training when they know they only have a short time left in the driving seat? (so to speak!).

 

Since the introduction of the IETs and the GWR driver grade the company really has lost its way, the more HSS drivers that retire the more they are going to struggle to cover the work.
Route knowledge, productivity and flexibility are key, and they’re losing it quickly.

 

Drugs test for TaplowGreen please.

Around 100 years service between the three recent retirees.

Reason for edit, missed out a word.

 

Thanks for letting me know, Chris.   This may happen occasionally when the receptionist finds it can't talk to the worker, and that did happen this evening because I rebooted the worker.

 

Got aproper page on retrying

 

Can't blame them for leaving, the money's awful! 

I wouldn't worry thought, I'm sure GWR will have it covered - their workforce management abilities are legendary.

 
Another 3 HSS BTM drivers retired today... With full depot route knowledge that won't be replaced.

 

.....and to be fair, being a train driver puts you in the income bracket necessary to be able to afford Twickenham tickets these days!

 
Drivers prioritising the life over working overtime. You really can't blame them. Rugby @ 1500.

 
Not quite as many as last week, but another batch of cancelled/part cancelled trains again today, particularly out of Paddington around 4pm with three long distance trains in a row cancelled.

After many weeks of next to zero cancellations, are we seeing a slow return to how things were before Christmas?

 
I agree it's pathetic.

Now if only the money was paid up 20 years ago and Sundays were inside the working week. I would have liked that option.

 

Oh, that's alright then. Just a shame it gets to Exeter half an hour after the last service to Plymouth leaves
 

 

2103 Exeter is shown as running. Also the above trains not showing on RealTime trains so cancelled well in advance?

 
Railway pay is four weekly, 13 pay days a year so March or April is the freebie month. Also every few years there's a single week bank credit.

 
1803,1903 & 2003 Paddington-Plymouth all cancelled due to crew shortage. I guess that just leaves the Sleeper?

 

Would that be for staff paid 4-weekly or monthly?

 

I wonder whether "these days" most people are handilng their cash flow on plastic, and can quite cheerfully charge half term or weekend treats for the younger family members and pay in weeks to come or next month.

 

Not until next Friday for most.

 
When was payday?  Sunny weather and a full wallet.....

 
After a decent couple of months looking at the map today there's a fair number of full/part cancellations due to lack of train crew, longer distance services later in the day especially.  Hopefully we're not seeing GWR slipping back into their woeful Sunday performance.

Surely not everyone had tickets for Man City v Plymouth? 

 

In my case, it was entirely unpondered, but it's interesting to know.

 

Thank you - that has answered one of my long-time unanswered but unasked questions that I've pondered for sometime!

 
Generally LTV trains are DOO, Driver Only Operation. Gatwick, Marlow and I think Basingstoke are driver and guard.
All West services are also driver and one guard.

A single IET outside of the LTV area requires a minimum of driver and guard. When catering is provided in theory it's 2 customer hosts per set, first class and trolley operator. When it's a ten car then one of the customer hosts in the front set must be a lead host in case of an emergency. The TM is allowed to swap between sets for revenue duties as long as there is a lead host in both sets.

Finally add all the wasteful travelling that takes place. In theory drivers just advise the TM or guard and sit down. The other grades are supposed to other assistance, pushing the trolley or checking tickets.

As a comparison on ČD any service with a restaurant car has a chef, waiter for the restaurant coach and another for taking a trolley through second class and offering an at seat service in first class. Nothing beats a goulash polévka then veal, lentils and vegetables and 33cl can of craft beer being served at your seat at a steady 90 MPH for about £12.

PS The ham and eggs breakfast is highly recommended.

 

Difficult to give an average, though I would guess at around two.

Usually ranges from one (DOO services) to ten (Pullman services).

 
Out of interest how many staff are on an average service?

The reason I ask, I travelled from Paddington to Temple Meads last week on first class.
There was a hostesses for standard class, and another one for first class
Then there was a train Manager, but also another two staff checking tickets

I felt like I was on a plane for the number of staff

 

Correct. Not much overtime being worked and maximum leave allocation used.

 

Half term?

 
Don't be surprised if there's a few cancellations between now and Monday morning due to a shortage of staff.

 
A lack of shunter at long rock was the issue this morning.

The 2 car unit used on the Paddington as far as Truro was stabled in the station overnight- no shunter required this morning. It was utilised in service instead of running empty in the running space of the IET

 

On Sundays, yes.

Also the rest of the week if correctly diagrammed.

Or for example...

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G45596/2025-01-12/detailed

The TM to work it was on 1L32. That was stuck outside waiting a platform. Not for the first time a Mexican stand off at Swindon!

 
Will be restarted at Plymouth.

 
1A80 0815 Penzance to London Paddington
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 13:29
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 13:29 will be terminated at Truro.
And it's a two car unit.
Guessing it will go on to the Falmouth branch

 

 
The hiatus of cancellations and short running of services due to train crew shortages after three weekends of nigh on 100% of services running has sadly come to an end today.

What have we learned from these past weeks? That GWR really DO have enough train crew to run the timetabled service…IF the price is right.

 
.......well, after two days without a single full or part cancellation due to staff shortages, they're starting to roll in thick and fast for Friday 27........

 

The taxpayer I assume you mean?

 
The Dft I assume you mean? GWR won't be paying

 

I wonder though…..financially, what is better for GWR?

A mass of cancellations, replacement coaches, taxis, accommodation and delay repay OR raising the rate of pay and covering the jobs.

 

Flash enough cash...

 
As predicted a much better service on GWR today with, as far as I know, only cancellations to Barnstaple and Okehampton due to the forecast of high winds.

However there a number of long distance services with either no or reduced catering.  At least these are advertised on Journeycheck so affected passengers can make alternative arrangements.

 

….. or is it just a poor excuse covering for a issue of their own making.

Raise the rest day payment during the week and the result should have been obvious, more so, as that mistake has been made before.

 

But a reliance on overtime and/or rest day working demonstrably prevents GWR from running a half-way decent service leading to the public using other forms of transport, or not travelling at all, and a consequential significant loss of revenue.

 

but the higher basic pay may encourage more people to try and join the railways, if the companies are allowed to employ them.

 
Secretary of State confirms that the pay rise has made matters worse.....

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/christmas-travel-pay-rise-transport-secretary-heidi-alexander/

 
A way of paying off the overspend of that pay over Christmas (holidays & presents)

 

….. but previously there were people saying drivers don’t want the overtime because they’ve had a huge pay rise!!!! 

 
Then normal no service resumed on January 5th.

 
................what a difference double time makes to the desire to spend time with one's family! 

 

 #2565 #2566 and #2568….. but I’m no good with quotes! 

 
Some good news on the Sunday front this morning…..

The DfT have now given GWR approval to restart formal conversations with the trade unions to find a solution.


Yet a further indication on who has been blocking a resolution.

 

All the employment on-costs that apply to staff - final salary pension, employment taxes, additional depot space, that sort of thing - it all adds up. Overtime just attracts a small amount of additional NI.

 
According to the Oxford Clarion: https://bsky.app/profile/oxfordclarion.bsky.social/post/3ldq7suc7hc2n
"A last-minute pay deal has averted collapse of GWR’s service this Sunday (22nd) and next (29th), but widespread cancellations are still expected.
GWR has agreed to pay drivers and guards double rate.
The company does not have enough staff to run a full Sunday service without overtime."

 

Not entirely sure just where you got that quote from, a-driver
The post that you quote is actually this one - and those words you quote don't appear! 

 
I completely fail to understand how the ongoing reliance on overtime and/or rest day working can be a better financial option than a fully contracted workforce given that this morning, on Talk, Simon Calder, who I think is generally regarded as knowing his subject, stated that the (daily) additional payments were £250-£300 for some on-train staff such as TMs and £600 for drivers.

 
May I step in here, quietly, as an Administrator, simply to thank all of you contributing to this rather 'lively debate', for keeping it polite?

Thank you. CfN. 

 
No. Those costings GWR provided to the DfT included the exact number and cost of additional drivers required.... and that is, and still remains the stumbling block.  The DfT opting to cover Sunday's on overtime with a commitment to work Sunday's.   
Every driver is rostered Sunday's, but can obviously make themselves unavailable if they choose.  You take those rostered Sunday's, you work out what that equates to over the course of the year and you add that to the basic salary.  That becomes pensionable etc.  It's relatively easy to sort. The issue is the extra number of drivers required which is what the DfT refuses to agree to.

A commitment to work Sunday's does not work.  There are issues with it.  If you are contracted to work Monday to Saturday, you can only apply for leave on those days.  You can not apply for leave on a Sunday.  Therefore, for example, f you book yourself a Saturday to Saturday holiday but you are rostered to work that Sunday, you can't get out of it. 


It is indeed extremely tiresome.


You haven't got a shortage of drivers, in fact, they're over established at many depots.  The issue is not all the drivers sign all the routes and/or traction.  That issues stems from the huge number of new drivers they have recruited over the last 10-15years.  If you were based at Paddington depot 10-12 years ago and walked in the mess room tomorrow, you wouldn't recognise any faces such is the turnover of staff.
You train new drivers right up until they can become productive and then you let them loose on the mainline.  This gives them time to settle in, find their feet, grow in confidence etc.  You don't overload them with all the routes in one hit. That's not the way to retain key information.
Not only have they recruited a significant number of new drivers over the last 10-15 years, but you've had the IET's come into service and 387's.  You've had the Turbo's move West, 158's move West and Castle sets.  That's all new traction training and handling hours. 
Covid then came along and everything came to a halt. Which things resumed, some instructors weren't comfortable having others in the cab and gave up the role so new instructors had to be recruited and trained.  There's still a backlog of training outstanding and there's still a large number of wanna-be train drivers in the talent pool awaiting start dates so it's an ever improving situation, rest day working is, from what I hear, certainly reducing.  However, July 2025 see's the pay rise reflected in final salary pensions so you could see an exodus then, and if that involves old BR staff, they only have to provide minimal notice. 


Sunday's will always remain an issue until the DfT agrees to a solution.  Either a rise in Sunday's rates or bringing Sunday's into the working week.  The ball is in the DfT's court.  The DfT have agreed increased payments for 22nd (albeit to late) and the 29th so we shall see the outcome of that shortly.



I will wait with bated breath!

 

These agreements and contracts generally get looked at by highly paid lawyers, only a muppet would agree to a business requirement that requires 50,000 hours annually of train crew (or whatever the figure is) and then agree to a staffing level that only covers about three quarters of the requirement.

You shouldn't work on assumption that because staff would work 60 hour weeks 100 years ago, then they will still so in mid 2020s when pay is higher and work-life balance expectation is completely different. Although GWR management don't seem to get this as I have seen the history argument (it used to be ok) used recently.

 


Where's the mention in that 2022 business plan about recruitment? The point I've been making. You've highlighted the 'Seven Day Railway' part of the business plan. That's about GWR providing costing to the DfT for existing staff having their contracts changed to include Sundays.

It's getting somewhat tiresome to keep repeating that the driver shortage issue goes back over a decade with FGW/GWR failing to address it. Cancellations due to driver shortages occur on every day of the week.

FGW's/GWR's driver shortage problems did not suddenly pop into existence when the DfT awarded them the direct contract in 2022. This thread alone is evidence of that. And other threads on a similar theme predate the start of this one in 2017.

Instead of recruiting since 2012 FGW/GWR were happy to take the cheaper option of paying overtime to their existing drivers, relying on goodwill. That just stored up problems for the future - an aging driver pool, losing the goodwill, industrial action...


Okay. I'm dealing with politicians here so... If

 

Indeed very much worth a read ... there is some specific mention of GWR therein:


We have a complex situation which manifests itself in different ways that have somewhat diverged in different franchises / contracts, and even they within the contract.  Northern drivers to the east of the Pennines and different to Northern drivers west of the Pennines, and on GWR it depends on which part you came from in 2006 or in the decade thereafter, or are a recent recruit.   Then on top of the complex situation you have the (to me) grey interface between First (as GWR) and HMG (as DfT) where I feel that whoever is asked there's a degree of "not my choice, mate".

 

When!   

Business plan dated 14 June 2022.  Page 28.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eadac062ff48ff7487b253/first-greater-western-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2022-to-2023.pdf
The extract is as follows:.

Train Crew - Seven Day Railway
4.1 4.2 The Operator will use all reasonable endeavours to increase the number of drivers with a Sunday working
commitment.

The Operator will by no later than 9 December 2022 submit an indicative costed proposal to the Secretary of State
to include Sundays in the working week for drivers during the Contract Term, and the Operator shall ensure that
such costed proposal:

(a) specifies clear and deliverable outputs and the steps required to implement such outputs;b) identifies relevant risks and potential mitigations;
(c) identifies options for delivery of outputs (including options for introduction of Sundays in the working
week for drivers from such different points during the Contract Term as the Secretary of State may
direct); and
(d) identifies all estimated potential costs including of any proposed options,

and shall do so in a manner consistent with the potential incorporation of such proposals in the draft Business Plan
to be submitted to the Secretary of State by no later than 15 December 2022 so that they are capable of being taken
forward through the annual Business Plan process set out at paragraph 3 of Chapter 7.7 (Business Plan) of the
Contract if so directed by the Secretary of State.

It is acknowledged that the Secretary of State may, in accordance with paragraph 3 (Annual Business Plan Process)
of Chapter 7.7 (Business Plan) of the Contract, propose the applicability of a business plan commitment equivalent
to paragraph 4.1 in future Contract Years.

So, a company that you believe has total control of operations, a free reign to do as it pleases..... for some reason..... has to submit a detailed and costed proposal to the Secretary of State to have Sunday's in the working week.  And that proposal can only be implemented if so directed by the Secretary of State.  To me, that sounds very much like the DfT have total control. 

I'd very much like to know from your MP why the proposal wasn't agreed by the Secretary of State. 

 

Equally, you can't claim it DOES exist.

Meanwhile, my MP is putting the question to the rail minister. When I have that response I will of course share it here.

 
Just a note to say that, even if there's no proof in the public domain, you can't claim that it doesn't exist. Confidentiality clauses exist in most commercial contracts.

 

I have. Don't presume to tell me what I have and haven't done.

But do please help me out if I've missed something in the business plan about DfT control of hiring of staff. I've attached the document to aid you.

I can also attache previous franchise agreements and service level commitments if you'd like. I've read those from start to finish too. I continue to await PROOF that the DfT are, and have in the past, been dictating to GWR whether they can or can't hire sufficient staff to meet their obligations to provide the timetabled service.

 
......guess it goes to show how much train drivers basic pay has increased since privatisation, certainly in comparison with similar jobs such as coach/bus drivers.

Overtime now no longer needed or wanted, and the policy of TOCs relying on it to sustain weekend services rather than employing sufficient staff to do so has firmly bitten them in the arse.

 
The same with train crew.

Driver link 10 at Canton 1993 and 94 had 3 Sundays in 16 weeks along with 2 days marked xxx. The xxx meant first priority at any volunteer Sundays irrespective of the Sunday count and subject to Hidden along with route and traction knowledge. And there were plenty of experts who would check who had the short notice Sundays and if a mistake was made a claim for loss of earnings would be made.

Also it wasn't unknown to swap the fortnight summer leave if a booked Sunday feel in the middle. This was because a driver was always not available for the middle Sunday of a fortnights' block leave.

 

I remember from working on the railways upwards of 40 years ago how most staff wanted to work on Sundays.  There would actually be major fallings-out sometimes, between colleagues or between staff and their roster clerk, if an expected Sunday turn didn't find its way onto the roster.  Many with families depended on the extra money.  The standard 40-hours' pay was no great shakes, back then

It was overtime (with a hefty premium) back then.  So it's a bit disingenuous of Mr Wheelan to claim that the present working arrangements for Sundays are the result of privatisation

 
Good article, worth a read;

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/uk-railways-sunday-overtime-trains-b2666301.html

 

You clearly haven't read it. 

 

Yes. Nothing in that about DfT control over the hiring and training of staff.

 
Buses of Somerset staff shortages have been ongoing for several months.

It's all the DfT's fault of course.

 
It is not just GWR, Buses of Somerset, also part of First Group,  have been having problems over the past few days
(From X)

 

from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2yv19721xo

 

If you think that a few hundred pages of A4 that forms a Franchise Agreement or National Rail Contract, a document that is very much word for word, the same for every TOC then you carry on thinking that!  The main details in any franchise is deemed commercially sensitive.

I assume you've also read the business plan? 

 
In the absence of publicly available information I'll go with what is available. The Franchise Agreements, Service Level Commitments and the current 2022 Greater Western National Rail Contract and Train Service Plans. Rather than hearsay and conspiracy.

Why would the DfT prescribe a train service plan and then hamstring the operators ability to provide that service level? There would be contract breaches. If this is really happening and the DfT are preventing GWR from fulfilling their contractual obligations why aren't GWR saying so?

 

And you seriously think that information is public?   

Who determines what is "sufficient".   You're clearly in the belief that a company can be as reckless as it likes with a franchise/contract and then just hand the keys back without penalty! 

 

Can you point out to me in the 2012 Greater Western Franchise Agreement or the Service Level Commitment where the staffing levels are prescribed by the DfT? Or elsewhere. I've found nothing yet that states the DfT were responsible for the hiring and training of TOC staff or the numbers that can be employed. Indeed I've found nothing in ANY 'classic' franchise agreement where numbers of staff are prescribed. Beyond obligating franchisees to ensure sufficient staff to meet Service Level Commitments.

Section 15 of the (now superceded) 2020 Greater Western Franchise Agreement went into great detail about the operators' obligations to provide and train adequate staff. At no point in that agreement did it state that the DfT or Secretary of State had put limits on staff numbers, nor prescribed how many were to be recruited. It did however put obligations on the operator to enusre there were sufficient staff to run the timetabled service.

 

True. Ryanair is much better value, their Boss is highly visible.....and their crews work on Sundays!  (.......runs away & hides behind the sofa) 

 
Easy there TG  Won’t have a bad word said about Ryanair. Never had a problem with them. Does what it says on the tin, no nonsense.

Anyway, back to the topic of luggage on trains. I don’t see what the problem is. Plenty of space in the guards van…oh wait.

 
Getting more like Ryanair every day.....

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/c4bd5daab5f316e9

 

First Group HO (Model railway, 3.5mm to 1 foot scale)

 

How many times do we need to say it. The operation has been micromanaged by the DfT from the first day it went into private hands.


The DfT sets the staffing levels. A move to get Sundays into the working week would have required approval from the DfT. Again, you can’t hire more staff without the DfT approval.

The DfT set the terms of the franchise/contract, not First. First are highly unlikely to turn something down that’s beneficial to them.

It’s always been DfT controlled. Every single franchise was and is still DfT controlled. Nothing has really changed with the operations that have moved back into public ownership.

Because that’ll sort everything.

 
How many times does it need saying that the staffing issues predate the direct award in 2022? As I previously said this thread goes back SEVEN years. There are a good few other topics of a similar nature that predate even this thread.

When there was goodwill FGW/GWR were happy to take the cheaper option of paying overtime rather than hire and train staff. An additional cost that would've dented First Group profits during the good times after they saved themselves from the £800 million backend on the previous franchise agreement. One they happily signed and went into with their eyes open.

The last two years of DfT control are a smokescreen being used to hide all the disfunction and mismanagement of the Greater Western franchise over the last decade and more.

The sooner First Group have the trainset taken from them the better.

 
Because it's the DfT that has their hand on the tiller & Mark's hands are tied behind his back.

How many times does this need to be said?

 

Mark Hopwood certainly doesn't seem to have a firm grip of the tiller.

 

Yes...except for the fact that GWR won't be 'paying up' anything as the DfT will be the ones that do that.  Basically, double time for the two Sundays in question instead of the (for drivers) time-and-a-quarter that you get for normal Sundays and the time-and-a-half you get for working an additional shift on any other day.

Of course with so little notice, some folk who may have been interested for this Sunday will doubtless have made other plans by now.  We'll see if it's enough to make a big difference.

The word 'rudderless' springs to mind!

 
The main takeaway from this was the government have told GWR to pay up to ensure services run this Sunday 22nd and the following Sunday 29th. So some good news for passengers travelling over Christmas if enough train crew can be persuaded to earn some extra cash.

 
For those in the BBC Points West region, and possibly others served by GWR, there will be a news item covering the current Sunday service issues in this evening’s program 17/12. Will be available on iPlayer for 24 hours following broadcast.

 

In a roundabout way, yes. Staffing levels are set by the DfT. GWR are currently overstaffed at a number of depots. In the last 5 or more years, GWR have recruited and trained more drivers than they’ve ever done.  The DfT can, and have previously, put on a block on recruitment.  Recruitment needs approval.
There’s only so many trainees you can have in the system at any one time.

 
So you're saying the DfT were responsible for hiring and training prior to thr direct contract in 2022?

News to me.

 

If you knew anything about the rail industry you’d know it’s been micromanaged from Day 1 of being privatised.
You can give it all they handed the keys back in 2012 but the DfT signed a contract that allowed them to do so. First Group is first and foremost a business.  They’ve signed a contract containing terms and conditions stipulated by the DfT. The DfT have taken no action so it can only be assumed that First are meeting its contract obligations.

All the blame lies squarely with the DfT, and that’s the case not just for GWR but every other franchised (or management contract) operation. 

 

This thread is SEVEN years old! The problems pre-date the management contract signed in June 2022. You can't place all blame with the DfT. FirstGroup went into franchise and management contract negotiations with their eyes open. Let's no forget they also handed the keys back in 2012 and saved themselves over £800 million pounds. And were then happy to take on the franchise again and receive nearly £200 million in subsidy.

The Greater Western franchise has been a basket case for well over a decade. The buck stops with the MD.

 

The majority of other businesses aren’t micromanaged by Government!

First Group HO clearly know who’s responsible for the current situation.

 
In any other business, the MD would've walked or been sacked by the board by now.